Wait for baptism until...

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, Sep 27, 2010.

  1. Salty

    Salty
    Expand Collapse
    20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    22,093
    Likes Received:
    218
    Suppose the town drunk came to your church on a Sat night revival and was saved.

    Would you want to baptize him Sun evening, or wait until he has shown that he has actually give up the bar scene?

    Of course this could go for other situations as well, for example an unmarried couple living together, and ect
     
  2. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,969
    Likes Received:
    128
    Wait for baptism until...

    ...after trusting in Jesus for salvation.

    If we were to wait until we were perfected I'd still be waiting.

    Rob
     
    #2 Deacon, Sep 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2010
  3. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,162
    Likes Received:
    368
    The question would be "Was he drunk when he was "saved"?" My brother was quite "ripe" for getting him to "say the prayer" after my mom's funeral but he was also three (or four) sheets to the wind. My husband was speaking with him and he said that while he easily could have had him pray that night, his heart was not right nor was his sobriety so he didn't do anything. That was 11 years ago.

    If the town drunk professed faith in Jesus Christ and knew the cost of the cross, I'd be more than happy to have him baptized. The same with anyone else. Of course I will also pray that God would show them their sin and that they would soon leave that sin behind just like I would pray that for anyone.
     
  4. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,969
    Likes Received:
    128
    I was talking with a person who lives near a mission project in Philly.

    It was mentioned that among the congregation there were only a handful of couples (a married man and woman), most in the group were single with children.

    I think it's important for them to know the basics of what they believe and know the consequences of falling away (Luke 14:25ff)

    Rob
     
  5. Salty

    Salty
    Expand Collapse
    20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    22,093
    Likes Received:
    218
    I'm not suggesting we be perfect - as we can not be, but I believe there should be an honest change of heart - and only time can do that.

    So No, I would not.
     
  6. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,439
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd baptize him. I'd baptize the couple living together if they had trusted Christ as Savior. For me, baptism isn't about joining the church. It's about obedience to the command of Christ.

    If you're talking about joining the church - and you're not - i'd talk to the "town drunk" and the couple about dealing with their sin before they could join.
     
  7. The Archangel

    The Archangel
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    The problem here is that Baptism and joining the church should not be seen as separate.

    I would not baptize a couple living together. Period. They would have to demonstrate their repentance.

    But, historically, baptism and being a member of the church baptizing you were not thought of as separate experiences. One necessarily led to the other.

    As for the rest of the thread, I would examine and watch the person in question to see what his or her faith looks like--do they come to our church regularly, has their behavior changed, is there evidence of regeneration, etc.

    It is far, far worse to baptize a person who is actually a non-believer than to wait a little longer to baptize a true believer.

    Since baptism is not required for salvation, there is no harm in investigating a person's claim before baptizing them.

    The Archangel
     
  8. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tom, I see that we part company on the relationship between baptism and church membership. My view is that water baptism of a believer is the door to church membership. Consistent with my view, I think there should be some space between conversion and baptism. Not a long time, but not immediately, either. I think some orientation would be useful.
     
  9. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    I support Tom Butler on this one. And I agree on waiting until the person proves themself before I would baptize them.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  10. Zenas

    Zenas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    In the Baptist church baptism is indeed the door to membership. However, I don't think you can make much of a case for this out of the New Testament. What church was the Ethioian eunuch baptized into? What Cornelius and his household? I realize there were many who were baptized into the church, as on the day of Pentecost, but this is not an exclusive pattern in the N.T.
     
  11. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    They were baptized by members of the Jerusalem church (Philip and Peter), under the authority of the FBC Jerusalem.
     
  12. Zenas

    Zenas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    Yes but did that make them members of the FBC of Jerusalem? They were hardly in a position to contribute much to the life of the church. Watchcare members perhaps? :)
     
  13. Salty

    Salty
    Expand Collapse
    20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    22,093
    Likes Received:
    218
    Lets take a look at their church Constitution, I'm sure someone has a copy!
     
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    I would always demand PROOF of salvation before any "next" step. Following what John and Jesus demanded - fruit that demonstrates repentance.

    No one (except red herring types) are talking about being "perfect". How silly. But how does the church KNOW that the person is truly a regenerate child of God?

    Baptism is important, but not some "quick into the tank" important. Instruct them in the Word and allow the Spirit to work in their heart. Soon they will say "what doth hinder me from being baptized?" THEN have a party!!

    (The NT is full of examples of people well-versed in the OT who took the next step of believing Jesus as their Messiah. They were mature, proven and I'd have no issue with their immediate baptism. But folks today aren't coming from that - in any stretch of the imagination. They could easily be not truly saved or not understanding baptism itself.

    My son's church asks everyone who professes salvation to take a four-hour "Christianity 101" class. At the conclusion, before baptism or membership or any ministry, they must write out in detail their "testimony". At that point many realize they had parrotted a prayer but not saved or had questions. He said easily a third or more get saved at THAT time, not at an earlier hand-raising or walking the aisle.
     
  15. Salty

    Salty
    Expand Collapse
    20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    22,093
    Likes Received:
    218
    So true - so very true :tear: but PTL, they truly are born again :thumbsup:
     
  16. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,439
    Likes Received:
    0
    We demand salvation and baptism by immersion (after salvation) for membership, but that is not all we ask of people if they are going to be members of our church. The requirement for baptism, as we see it, is has the person trusted Christ as Savior? We look at Philip and the Ethiopian treasurer. Philip asked 1 question: do you believe?

    I am leaving for the next few days, so i won't be arounnd to continue this important discussion, but I would ask what fruits would you demand for baptism? Do you require all open sin such as an inveterate gossip or would you demand that a morbidly obese person quit their over eating and self-indulgent life style?

    What fruits did the people in Acts 2 demand of those who believed? Did they investigate their lives? What about Cornelius?

    I am sorry I won't be here to discuss this, but will catch up when I am back on Friday. I look forward to it.
     
  17. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can someone show me any example in the NT where they waited to be baptized, or had to go through a class? If not, then the writers of the NT would agree to go ahead and have the baptism on Sunday night.... Or even after the service on Saturday night.

    Looking at our church's history (from the 1870s) people were saved during a revival, immediately baptized, and then accepted into membership at the next scheduled business meeting...

    In the NT, it was unheard of to wait for baptism... because baptism was so tied to the salvation experience that as soon as someone was saved, they were baptized...
     
  18. glfredrick

    glfredrick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    Indeed, there is no universal pattern in the NT, which is why we're still having these discussions about 2000 years later. But, there is somewhat a normative principle, and that is to baptize people into the church in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Those baptized, seemingly, apart from the local church were probably special cases, where God was calling them to be the start of the church in a new land. Some of what happened in the NT was the first time that anything of that nature had ever happend, so it may be in a special category.

    The example of the early church -- shortly after Pentecost (where 3000 were added in the same day, presumably already quasi followers of Christ, who had been exposed to His teaching before turning away because of the crucifixion) was to spend time in instruction of new converts before baptizing them by immersion. Sometimes this period would be as long as a year or more. Of course, this basic inital practice by the Catholic Church degenerated into a series of mandated works that really had little to do with anything more than indoctrination into the Roman Catholic world, but that is not a good reason for tossing out the true church's example in training persons in the Word of God and examination of the evidences of a regenerated life before making them baptized church members.

    Here is a really good article with an Evangelical perspective that I found on the web:
    http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/47/47-1/47-1-pp039-054_JETS.pdf

    Worth a read!

     
  19. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Since posters seemed to have missed the point of the MASSIVE DIFFERENCE in the converts from Judaism in the NT and converts today, I quote myself.

    When folks WERE saved out of paganism (think: Corinth) how quickly were they baptized? Paul was the missionary pastor there 2+ years and only baptized 4 or so (Crispus, Gaius family of Stephanas) I Cor 1:14-16

    His goal in those early years of that pagan church-plant was "not to baptize, but to preach the gospel." I Cor 1:17

    Whole different ballgame then baptizing messianic Jews who only took a tiny step from the old to new than the pagan gentiles. These converted Jews on Pentecost et al KNEW what baptism was, KNEW about the Messiah, KNEW the Scriptures. Poor gentiles in Greece and Asia didn't have clue 1.
     
  20. thebuzzard

    thebuzzard
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree. If they received Christ they can be baptized and should be. They are part of the "church" the instant they are born again, not when they are baptized. They are baptized to outwardly and publicly profess their salvation.

    Joining one of our local churches is a different animal and we really do not have much Scripture that instructs on that. We have people join our church who have been baptized and many who have not been. We strongly encourage them to be baptized as soon as possible but not to qualify as a member. Rather as an obedient member.
     

Share This Page

Loading...