1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Wait for baptism until...

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, Sep 27, 2010.

  1. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    Same here. If an unsaved person is baptized, all it will do is get him wet. Otherwise, baptism should be done as soon after salvation as possible.

    Time will prove one way or the other how real his profession of faith was.
     
  2. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    1
    Baptism should wait until the person is confident they have no alternative but to be baptized.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    41,907
    Likes Received:
    1,469
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A person should be baptized as soon as practicable upon coming to Christ Jesus in repentance and faith.
     
  4. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,155
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. There are no teachings I can see in Scripture suggesting one wait for baptism till repentance has been proven.

    2. Every single specific example in Scripture of baptism has it occurring immediately after the profession of repentance/belief. Jews AND gentiles.

    So with no positive teachings in favor of waiting and with every positive example in contradiction, what Scripture virtue is there in arguing for a necessary waiting period?

    "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

    Apparently the onus for determining whether true belief exists is on the one who professes, not on the preacher.
     
  5. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    Here's a problem I see:

    I have heard many exhortations (invitations, altar calls). And many of us have been taught to "draw the net" by inviting the lost one to "repeat after me."

    The Bible says "Repent."
    Paul (Acts 17) preached "God commands you to repent."
    Paul (Acts 16) exhorted "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."
    Philip said to the eunuch "I'll baptize you if you truely believe."
    The eunuch said to Philip "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
    Paul said (Acts 20) "Repent to God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."
    Jesus said "Repent"
    John the Baptist said "Repent."
    Paul said (Romans 10) Confess that Jesus is Lord."
    Paul said (Romans 10) "Believe in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead."
    Paul said (Romans 10) "Call upon the name of the Lord."

    We do not find anywhere in Scripture where we are to invite anyone trust Jesus. Paul pressed upon the Mars Hill listeners God's COMMAND to repent.

    We find nothing in scripture where men must accept Jesus as Savior. Rather, God accepts us because of Jesus.

    We do not find anywhere in Scripture where the lost are told the "pray this prayer," "Pray something like this," or "ask Jesus into your heart," or pray anything at all.

    I've heard exhortations to "come down this aisle," "step out on faith," "meet me here at the altar," but you'd be amazed (or maybe not) how many times I have heard exhortations which said nothing about repenting, and nothing about trusting Christ for salvation.

    So maybe the one reason we ought to wait a bit on baptism is to find out exactly what invitation they were responding to. I know a couple of young women whose sole testimony of salvation is, "well, I said the prayer." Can you say cold chills?
     
    #25 Tom Butler, Sep 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2010
  6. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    11
    The newly saved must understand that by professing Christ and entering into His ordnance, he is entering into a covenant relationship with Christ and by extension His people. If they understand that and the implications of it, they can be baptized.

    I think that that covenant relationship was better understood in biblical times than in modern times, hence the trip to the water took much less time than it does today. Modern salvation is portrayed as such an individual transaction that the church has some work to do to give them "the rest of the story".
     
  7. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,155
    Likes Received:
    0
    To me that would be an issue of fixing the message, not waiting for baptism. Now, if someone comes to you and you had little or nothing to do with teaching them the gospel, then sure, you should take the time to make sure they are clear on the gospel. If they aren't and/or refuse the gospel when explained, then you don't baptize - you don't "wait". So confirming they are clear on what they are doing is Scriptural - waiting to make sure they have really repented is not.
     
  8. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    I don't disagree with you. But fixing the message doesn't help those who have made professions of faith in response to the unclear message. Such practices are so widespread among Baptists, and I think they have contributed to the sad situation where on any Sunday, only 40% or so of the members show up for Bible study and worship. One prime example is a mega-church which has 30,000 members. Average attendance on Sunday: about 10,000. Large or small church, this is typical. Even in my own church, about 40% of our members show up.

    What happened to all those who don't show up? What invitation did they respond to? Whatever it was, it did not produce the desired result, except bragging rights for all those baptisms they did.

    We can quibble about delay or no delay, but something is not right in those churches which can't even get half their members there.
     
  9. billwald

    billwald New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    2
    What about the rest of us who are better at hiding our sins than the town drunk? Maybe every candidate should be required to take a lie detector test before baptism/church membership?
     
  10. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    If someone sets out to deceive the church, he'll probably succeed. Judas did a whale of a job at it. When I was on a mission trip to Romania, one young woman told me that when Communism fell in 1989, three deacons disappeared. They were Communists who had infiltrated their congregation, and did so well, they were elected deacons.

    That's not what I'm talking about. All I'm suggesting is a brief period to allow the pastor to ascertain the candidate's understanding of what's going on. He may already know, particularly if he's dealt with them for a while about their salvation.

    About ten years ago, we had three men make public professions of faith. Everybody was shocked. They were three of our deacons. They did not deceive anyone. They had all done something in response to an invitation as children, but repentance and faith were not it. All came under Holy Spirit conviction and confessed Christ as Lord.

    That's why I advocate a delay, especially for children.
     
  11. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,982
    Likes Received:
    2,615
    Faith:
    Baptist
    :thumbsup: Exactly my point in the OP !
     
  12. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Baptize him that night. Don't wait until Sunday. That is how it was done in the NT based in Acts.
     
    #32 freeatlast, Sep 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2010
  13. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then you would be I violation of scripture and the Lord's call to baptize mnaking yourself the Holy Spirit. There is no suggestion that we wait and see. Your position is both rebellious and dangerous.
     
  14. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    1
    In NT times they very often risked their lives to become a Christian. We live in an era when, yes, even the town drunk walks the aisle. Some people are even coerced to "receive" Christ. People even put pressure upon candidates to be baptized.

    In this age, let the candidate decide, but act responsibily and ask questions, ask questions. They should know what baptism means, a step in obedience. One can't take a step in obedience unless they know what they are believing.

    What is the rush? If there is that much of a rush, go Anglican, and be immersed 3 or 4 days after birth! Same candidate, just a little older.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  15. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    2
    One of the mandates that our church practices is to offer a testimony before baptism. We present those testimonies publicly (within the church network) for all to read or hear. The testimony of the baptized is read to the congregation before they are immersed.

    We feel strongly that the person being baptized needs to express their own testimony of salvation, not just respond in the affirmative to words spoken on their behalf by a pastor, a practice akin to "going forward and taking the hand of the pastor," all common practices in Baptist churches ("Have you accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior?" "Uh-hum."). There is power in speaking forth one's own salvation testimony.

    I find this to help fulfill Romans 10:9 so that the congregation can participate with the one being baptized. We're baptizing about 200 a year right now, so depending on the particular service where one is baptized the congregation will hear between 50 and 100 testimonies of faith before they get to see, pray over, and celebrate the actual event of baptism.

    Note that we are not utilizing a drawn out altar call format. We celebrate the Lord's Supper in every service, and as the pastor calls forth the body to take the elements of communion, he also states that communion is not for the unbeliever, and asks that the unbeliever "takes Christ" instead of taking the elements, so that we can celebrate together next time we meet. That is the extent of our altar call. Those who desire further counsel concerning salvation or any other matter at hand (repentance, problems, praises, etc.,) are directed to pastoral counseling which happens apart from the main service of worship.

    http://blog.sojournchurch.com/photo-blog-baptism-sunday-at-two-sojourn-campuses/

    You can read some of the many testimonies published in our Travelblog. Note that these are not theological treatises -- they are the words of people who have just recently come to know Christ as Lord and Savior -- they may not reflect mature biblical doctrines or the full teaching of our church.

    http://blog.sojournchurch.com/baptism-testimonies-sojourns-kevin-bowles/
    http://blog.sojournchurch.com/baptism-testimonies-sojourns-brittany-osborne/
    http://blog.sojournchurch.com/baptism-testimonies-sojourns-heather-bougher/
    http://blog.sojournchurch.com/baptism-testimonies-sojourns-karla-de-dominicis/
    http://blog.sojournchurch.com/baptism-testimonies-sojourns-suzee-beasley/
     
  16. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    It does not take long periods of time to explain baptism. I would ask you to show me in scripture where your method models how it was done in scripture after the church was formed.
     
  17. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes you may do that but it has nothing to do with how scripture shows the early church did it. I seriously doubt that your church has any less false believers in it then any other even in using the way you do. It would be far better to just baptize them and if they fall away they fall away.
     
  18. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    2
    You are making an argument from silence here... Because the Scriptures do not tell us every word that transpired from the witness to the convert, we don't really know that they did or did not discuss the true extent of biblical salvation or require a testimony of faith. If I said that we MUST have that element in place, I would be guilty of the same thing, but I'm not saying that. I am saying that we DO have that element in place in accordance with the Scriptural mandate to confess with your mouth that Christ is Lord, based in faith and repentance which implies some level of understanding of what all that means. That instruction can come before the confession of faith or after, but it must come at some point for a believer to truly understand what it is that they believe.

    We take these matters seriously. Do you practice this level of discipline in your congregation? I've not found many who do...

    I'm not so happy in just getting people wet so they might fall away later, not that that can't happen -- it can and it does. I'm not at liberty to share details, because this is a family (church) matter, but we can and do exercise Matthew 18 church discipline on those who fall away, and we did it just last night in a member meeting for two individuals. One fell away from the faith the other failed to respond to the church in issues of her marriage (she has left her husband for non-biblical reasons). Both were put out of the fellowship in tears and prayer for God's restoration. We also celebrated the redemption of another who was disciplined a year ago. He has repented and come back to faith, including a discipleship covenant with the congregation.
     
  19. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    The point I was making was not that there should not be some confirmation and even understanding, but that we are not to wait and watch the person over a period of time before we baptize them. Every instance in the scriptures where someone made a profession they were baptized right then and there. That was my point. By the way I am glad to here that the church you attend does church discipline as well as seeking clear understandings of commitment at salvation. I would that there was one in my area.
     
  20. thebuzzard

    thebuzzard New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well said. If they believe they can and should be baptized. We simply cannot know if their faith is real but God does know. How long would we have to monitor them to be sure. What if we stopped monitoring them one day too soon?
     
Loading...