Wall of seperation ?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by sandrocksam, Jan 26, 2004.

  1. sandrocksam

    sandrocksam
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    "A wall of seperation between Church and State"
    We have heard this phrase quite a bit, I recently did a search on the web for "Danbury Baptist" and found the letter from them to Jefferson and his reply. Based on the context of the Danbury Baptist letter which states their concern that congress making laws concerning the "Kingdom of Christ" and Jefferson's response assuring the Danbury Baptist that congress will "make no law respecting and establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excerise thereof, thus building a wall of seperation between Church and State." In this context I wonder how the Surpreme Court can oppose Christianty the way they are now doing. It is obvious that the Danbury Baptist and Thomas Jefferson are talking about one denomination being favor over another denomination within the Christian community not the religious community. Jefferson's letter is not a governing authority, but because the Supreme Court and other groups use the phase "wall of seperation" so much, I wonder why this "half truth" is not challenge. What thing Ye ?
     
  2. Precepts

    Precepts
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    I think Jesus is coming soon to straighten out all this mess! ;)
     
  3. ScottEmerson

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    As a Baptist, I really like the idea of a wall of separation between church and state. In fact, it's right there in my "Baptist Faith and Message." There hasn't been any law that has kept me from expressing my faith in whatever way I've wanted, so I'm happy with the wall so far.
     
  4. sandrocksam

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    Many are using this "wall of seperation" to say we can not acknowledge or praise God publicly and denying that our country was base on Christian principles and that Christianty is the very fabric of our founding fathers beliefs. I believe that Jefferson was stateing that the government was not going to interfer with our religious beliefs, which is good and as it should be. I do not think Jefferson was saying we as a people of this great county could not acknowledge and praise God or restrict us from these actions if it offended other beliefs. If you will take notice Christian beliefs are being restricted more and more and they are pretty much basing this restriction on this letter concerning the "wall of seperation" as a weapon against us and I'm just saying that based of my understanding of these letters that was not the intent of President Jefferson.
     
  5. ScottEmerson

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    How are my beliefs being restricted?
     
  6. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond
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    I have always felt that the intent was to avoid a "state church" such as the Anglican Church. I have never understood the concept that this implies a "wall of separation."

    [ January 26, 2004, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Baptist in Richmond ]
     
  7. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond
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    I thought I would add this to the discussion. This is on the side of a building in downtown Richmond. As you can see, the location is now a parking lot. I took it with black-and-white film.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Bartimaeus

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    For those of you who don't know and haven't turned a deaf ear: There is no "wall of separation", we have an established "church". It is the 501(C)3, not for profit, business "church", all over America. You can find it under the name of every denomination and sect in America.
    Thanks -----Bart
     
  9. sandrocksam

    sandrocksam
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  10. sandrocksam

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    A State church was the Danbury Baptist's concern and that is why they wrote the letter to Jefferson because they did not want this country to be like England and the Church of England which was a church/state religion, that was one of the reasons they have left England (religious freedom) and that was what Jefferson was assuring them would not happen and all this is good in the original intent. This seperation of church and state is now being turned around and used to justify (may I say by the ungodly) those who oppose Christianity and any references to God and Jesus. Bibles are not allowed in public schools, prayer is not allowed in public schools, the 10 Commandments are not allowed in government buildings. Boy Scout funding has been put in jeapordy because of references to God and their stand on homosexuals, the pledge of alligance is on the line, witnessing can be hazardous to your well being. All of this has taken place in the last few years. I believe we need to take notice on what is going on in this country and even other countries, Christianty is being challenge. It may not be at you door now, but it is coming and it started for the most part with "wall of seperation" We are a Christian nation,we are known as a Christian nation we have been extremly blessed by God, more than any other nation partly because we as a nation praised and acknowledge God. The bad guys want to mute that praise and acknowledgement of God. They think man is all sufficient and has no need of a god. The "wall of seperation" was to keep the government out of the church, it was not intended to keep God out of goverment.
     
  11. ScottEmerson

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    Where do you see that "Bibles are not allowed in public schools, prayer is not allowed in public schools"? In which school districts can that be found?

    FYI, the ACLU actually will help students whose rights have been violated by not being able to bring a Bible on campus or if a student is not allowed to pray.
     
  12. Hardsheller

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    There is a lot of difference between Jefferson's intent and the reality that a High School Valedictorian is censored in his/her speech at Graduation.

    During Jefferson's presidency, worship services were held in federal buildings in Washington, D.C.
     
  13. ScottEmerson

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    We've had separation of church and state for awhile. In my opinion, it is not that separation that has caused the moral decline. It has come because we as a Christian people have been afraid or unwilling to show others who the person of Christ is in our words, actions, and behaviours.
     
  14. ScottEmerson

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    Why not leave the proselytizing to a baccalaureate service? I just say this because I would not want my child to have to listen to a radical fundamentalist Muslim talk about his faith during such a service. I really wouldn't.
     
  15. rsr

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    sandrocksam said:

    It was to keep churches out of the state and the state out of the churches. I suggest you read the original draft of the Address to Danbury Baptists; it's much stronger than the edited version.

    WALL OF "ETERNAL" SEPARATION

    I agree that some people — mostly educators who are scared to death of lawsuits — have trodden on free exercise in an attempt to maintain disestablishment. That's a problem with the application, not the principle.

    James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785

    Almost indistinguishable from what Baptist John Leland said:

     
  16. Johnv

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    Yes, the Separation of Church and State is a Baptist Distinctive. We as Baptists are required to adhere to is as a matter of faith. The Baptist Discinctives are not optional beliefs for us. Unfortunately, too many preachers and congregations think they can pick and choose theri distinctives.
     
  17. go2church

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    And in Jefferson's day white people owned black people, your point is?

    The fact of the matter is that people who scream about seperation of church and state not being a good thing, really want christianity to be the recognized belief of America. Some Americans tried state supported religion, it didn't work! People are not truly free if they are not free to be something other then what the majority is!
     
  18. LadyEagle

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    So?

    How about Judeo-Christian beliefs which is what this country was founded upon.

    As far as Muslims prostelitizing during high school graduations, Muslims were not even in this country when the US Constitution was written. In fact, Jefferson was fighting Muslim terrorists when he was president -- the Barbary pirates. The founding fathers never dreamed this country would turn into the nonsense and wickedness it is today.

    But QS is quite correct. When the King of Kings comes back, He will sort it out. And there will be no separation of Church and state then. And boy will I be glad.
     
  19. Johnv

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    This country was founded upon taxation without representation. The English colonies, however, were founded upon religious freedom. But they looked to protect only their own religious freedom, and not someone else's. Colonists of one colony were known to consider another colony heretical. The Anglican, Lutheran, and Dutch Rerformed colonists had no great love for each other.

    Were they pirates because they were Muslim? Or was their religious affiliations inconsequential to their pirate trade? Piracy was quite common in the day, and most pirates were European, sacking merchant ships sailing from Dutch and English ports. The Barbary pirates were relegated to operating from the Barbary coast (the shores of Tripoli, Tunis, Morocco, and Algiers). Most of their targets were merchant ships sailing from France.

    The founding faithers were indeed that a religious majority would try to inflict its religion on the minority. The founding fathers never intended this to be a Christian-only society. If this were the case, they First Amendment would not have been written as it was.
    If you don't like separation of church and state, I suggest you renounce your baptist affiliation. After that, you're invited to leave the United States in favor of a country that has no separation of church and state, like Iran or Saudi Arabia.

    [ January 27, 2004, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
     
  20. Johnv

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    Let me rephrase that last statement, as it sounded a bit harsh. What I wanted to say was:

    You're invited to leave the United States in favor of a country that has no separation of church and state, like Iran or Saudi Arabia. Upon returning to the states, you'll no doubt be thaknful for the religious freedom that you do indeed have here.

    I attempted to edit the post, but time had run out. I was not attempting to tell you to "leave" or anything. Sorry 'bout that. It came out a bit wrong... [​IMG]
     

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