War and Faith

Discussion in 'Politics' started by KenH, May 14, 2006.

  1. KenH

    KenH
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    War and Faith

    April 18, 2006

    I can’t see our getting into a war with Iran — not while both countries are led by such cool, reasonable men.

    Of course at the moment both of them are snorting and pawing the earth with their forehooves a little; President Bush has indicated that he would be pleased with a little more regime change and fewer weapons of mass destruction in Iran, while President Ahmadinejad would be delighted to see Israel wiped off the map.

    But these are mere bargaining positions, the lofty dreams idealists bat around in idle moments. They’ll both come to their senses, and all things shall be well. Peace will prevail.

    Back here at home, though, Bush is in big trouble. He isn’t my idea of a conservative, but he’s the conservative liberals deserve; they’ve brought him on themselves, and I have no pity for them. Without them, he wouldn’t have been possible....

    Both Bush and Ahmadinejad, for all their piety, seem to think they are acting on behalf of the Almighty. Since they have clashing conceptions of the divine will, at least one of them may be mistaken.

    But Bush and Ahmadenijad and millions of others share one article of faith: faith in the state. That is, faith in the authority of organized force, and ultimately faith in war.

    Indeed, how many modern people can shake this faith? Very few, I’m afraid. Many men who can’t believe in God find it nearly impossible to imagine society without the state — the threat of force. The more the state demands of us, the more harm it does, the more inconceivable life without it seems to become.

    Sometimes I think our coins should bear the legend: "In Caesar we trust."


    - rest at LINK

    Another excellent column by Joseph Sobran.
     
  2. emeraldctyangel

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  3. Rocko9

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    _______________________________________________

    Or it could be that both are mistaken.

    Thanks for the link KenH, I've been enlightened by the stuff that Sobran has written.
     
  4. billwald

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    I can see Bush starting any war which will help the oil barons or the internationalist cause.
     
  5. SpiritualMadMan

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    But...

    Is what sobran is advocating Biblical?

    Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

    One must be careful who one makes his heroes...

    The State exists to keep order among non-believers...

    Without which we would devolve into anarchy...

    Perhaps the real answer is 2 chronicles 7:14 not sobran?

    SMM
     
  6. Rocko9

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    So then could the problem be that we are not in part recognizing the governing authorities of other countries, since when does the U.S. government overide foriegn authority of other countries.
    Aren't we as a country violating those Biblical principals when we disregard the established governments of other countries?
     
  7. Rocko9

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    And don't forget the preamble to the Constitution:
    We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    _______________________________________
    It is "WE THE PEOPLE" not George the President. Our president works for us not WE for him and is subject to representing the people of America. "WE THE PEOPLE" govern this country we are all in it togethor
     
  8. SpiritualMadMan

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    Then there was always the 'wag' that said the best defense is a good offense...

    And, wasn't it Teddy that said we should talk softly and carry a big stick?

    You can bluff only so long no matter how big the stick...

    Sooner or later you will have to use it...

    As for our recognizing other governments...

    Yes, we recognized that saddam invaded the sovreign nation of Kuwait and took action in our ally's defense...

    Yes, we recognized the government of Germany bombing our ally Britain and invading France and we took action to honor their needs...

    Unfortunately, political correctness prevailed and we didn't finish the job in Gulf War One...

    you may not agree with the rationale for Gulf War Two...

    But, far more Iraqi's thank us for liberating them from what they considered an illegitimate murderer than hate us for doing so...


    As for "We The People" at the time Bush had an overwhelming majority of Congress supporting the invasion and a majority of the World Community as well. (With a few notable exceptions.)

    And, the Congress had access to the same intelligence as did the president. And, they have parrallel methods of vetting that inteligence if they had wanted to do so.

    So don't give me any garbage about Bush going this alone...

    I also am one of those "We The People" and I supported him then...

    If we really are a Christian Nation shouldn't we emulate Our Lord in the natural?

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, (Oppressed)

    I think as the one nation that still proudly states that it is One nation Under God, we have a responsibility to do so...

    SMM
     
  9. Scott J

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    That's an interesting rationale. Bush believes that God wants men to be free to choose their own beliefs while this Iranian kook wants men to be free to choose Islam or die... and both are supposedly equally unreasonable and offensive.
     
  10. Rocko9

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    SMM,
    And I as well am one of the We the people and as far asyour garbage goes remember we have had presidents that have been impeached for not servng the will of the people and at least one for lying--------is George Bush next? Remember Saul was also annointed by God and fell from his grace because of his out right arrogance.
    Just as sure as God made it possible for Saul to rule He made it also possible to remove him for his disobedience.
    I see a lot of similarities between Saul and George Bush.
     
  11. SpiritualMadMan

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    Could we make a case for this verse?

    Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

    Just curious? :D

    SMM
     
  12. Rocko9

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    Yes,That works very well in describing the corrupt governments throughout the world including our own. :D
     
  13. SpiritualMadMan

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    R9

    How many hours are you on your knees on behalf of God's Will being done in Our Governement as it is being done in Heaven?

    Can you find a less corrupt government?

    I don't think so...

    As bad as it is...

    With all it's warts...

    It's still the best game on the Planet...

    SMM
     
  14. Rocko9

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    Sin is sin and corruption is corruption , and yes I do pray for our leaders. We do not have to tolerate corruption at any level, we are either a Nation of laws or a Nation of liars.Which do you want to be?
     
  15. Scott J

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    I love the founding ideals of our country... but I would not say that our current gov't looks like those principles to any great degree. Other countries' founding principles may not be as noble... but they may very well be more honest about their adherence to them.

    Our gov't is corrupt more because the people demand it than because anyone has successfully conspired to take it over.
     
  16. Scott J

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    Can you show the proof that Bush has been arrogant?

    That is surely the way his detractors have portrayed his doggedness on ideals and principles... but since when is it noble to abandon one's beliefs to curry favor with people who are wrong? Bush believes he did the right thing for the future of our country by removing Saddam and attempting to establish a free democratic state in the Islamic middle east.

    I agree with him completely on the first idea... and to a degree on the second.

    As for "admitting fault" et al.- Is that truly viable in today's media environment? Clinton didn't think so and about 85% of the people reporting on him voted for him and could be reliably trusted to spin stories in his favor. Republicans and especially conservatives are rightly wary of what the press will do to them when they acknowledge mistakes or failures.
     
  17. Rocko9

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    Yes Scott, Bush is arrogant. When he says he is the decider he is arrogant. When he says he is not providing amnesty for 12 million illegal aliens he is playing us for fools. When he led us to believ that WMD's existed in Iraq again he played us for fools.
    I voted for Bush as well as a lot of others.
    Some are dissapoointed about his handleing of Iraq and so they make thier voices known. Some are dissapointed about his slow reaction to hurricane Katrina, so again they have made thier voices known. Most of us are dissapointed , including myself, as to how he is handleing illegal immigration and so we make our voices known. It is our rights as American citizens to do so and it would be wrong to be quiet about bad policy making under any President.
    It is right to pray for our leaders but when we do we have to acknowledge that God is going to use us in either a small way or a huge way to answer those prayers.
     
  18. Scott J

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    That is a biased opinion not proven by your following tirade.
    No he isn't. He's recognizing the responsibility of his position.
    Which has nothing to do with being arrogant... in fact, it is quite a humble act to care about these people regardless of whether you think his conclusions are a right or not.
    No he didn't. Every attempt to prove that he knew the intelligence was bogus has failed even though those trying to prove it were very motivated.

    He didn't play us for fools. He was fooled with us. If he actually knew the intel was bogus... then he was the fool for thinking the liberal media would let him get away with it. The most consistent thing about the Bush WH is that they don't trust the MSM to give them a fair shake. Only someone blinded by bias would suppose that he thought he could fabricate the intel and get away with it.
    That is no excuse for not being fair and reasonable about what he did or could have done... nor does it provide a foundation for claiming he is arrogant.
    I think that is probably the most pathetic of them all. This was a natural disaster in a city that had by all accounts not planned in accordance with FEMA guidelines. The fact that they got there as fast as they did and with as much effectiveness as they did is more a cause for praise than condemnation.
    Good grief. You act as if this is a new issue. I worked with Mexicans during the Clinton Admin. The Atlanta suburb of Smyrna was chock full of them.

    Why is this suddenly an issue? Why is it "Bush's fault"? Media and liberal spin maybe? An intentional effort to break him down in order to win elections maybe? No fool thinks the GOP is immune from Bush's low polls.

    Brilliant politics... but not good for the country.
    So long as we are full and fair with the facts.
    Nothing in your post came close to proving your apparently emotion driven contention that Bush is arrogant.

    Can you cite someone who knows Bush personally with no particular bone to pick who says he is arrogant?
     
  19. poncho

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    You mean the people have demanded abolishing the borders, the destruction of our sovereingty as a nation and the looting of our economy by GovCorp?

    When did all this happen?
     
  20. Rocko9

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    Scott you are beiing plain silly.
    Bush is a public person, I don't have to know him personally.
    Immigration is one issue that almost all recent Presidents have not adressed suffeciently including Bush. When Clinton was President he was responsible for his portion poor policy making. This is not suddenly an issue but it is an issue that is imperitive to do something about right now.
    Some do believe Bush was slow to adress Hurricane Katrina this is an issue that I am not too concerned about. If Bush goofed on this one then maybe he has learned from his mistakes but I do believe that those who think enough suffecient evidence has been brought forth to prove that the President disregarded the plight of the Katrina victims then they have the right to have their voice known.
    As for WMD's, You are entitled to your opinion and I will just leave at that.I think you have too much pride though to admit that our President wouldn't try to sell us a war on a false premise.
    I think on Iraq we have given George Bush the benefit of the doubt for too long. George needs to realize that his own pride has become a stumbleing block, he should admitt that Donald Rumsfield is a failure and appoint some who is more capable of handling the job.

    Amnesty for 12 million illegals, yep again George is being so arrogant about believing that he can sell this to the American public and they will buy it.
    When Bush says that he is the decider he is leaving out all Americans who thought they had a voice in the decision making process.
     

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