Warning: this may be dangerous for the faint of heart

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7
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    The medical community says our DNA is inherited equally from both parents!
    For this discussion, let’s assume they are correct.

    I’m asking that we don’t fast-forward, but fast-backwards for a moment.

    Was Mary’s DNA passed on to Jesus?
    Or could her womb have been used without her passing on her DNA?
    An MD asked me,
    “If Jesus' physical body was not made in some way from Mary's DNA, then in what sense was He human?”

    Okay, let’s say Mary's DNA was passed on to Jesus, but no human male DNA was passed on.
    The only sinless human ever born was the One (Jesus) who had NO human father.

    Since Jesus was a sinless human, we have at least 4 reasonable(?) possibilities:

    1) Mary was a normal human sinner, and her DNA did NOT contain her sin nature

    2) Mary was NOT a normal human sinner (she was without sin), so her DNA did NOT contain any sin nature

    3) Man’s sin nature MUST be passed through the DNA from BOTH parents (male and female both)

    4) The Holy Spirit simply “planted” a sinless male human fetus in Mary’s womb

    If you’re still breathing, what do you think?

    .
     
  2. Winman

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    Gotta be one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen. Sin is not something you inherit like blue eyes or red hair, sin is something you do.

    Did Adam and Eve have sinful DNA? Then how did they sin?

    Jesus inherited his flesh from his mother Mary and could be tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15).

    This belief that a sin nature is passed by the father to his children is nothing but medieval superstition.

    God clearly said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    If there is any scriptural evidence that a sin nature can be passed to children physically, then the scriptures show it would be through the mother, not the father.

    Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

    Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

    If the sin nature is passed physically, then Jesus would have been a sinner because he was born of a woman.

    Pure superstition.
     
  3. Salty

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    or sin is passed thru the fathers DNA
     
  4. evangelist-7

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    Hey, Much Too Salty, gotta be one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen!

    Yup, sin is somethin' we do.

    The question is: Why did God create all humans to sin?
    Or you might say: Why did God create all humans to choose to sin?
    Doesn't make any sense!

    I would say: Because of "the Fall", which you disregard, God had A&E's sin nature passed down to us.
    Paul said "through the sin of one man, all men died" (both physically and spiritually).

    But, the thread is about ... How was it that Jesus was sinless?

    Your blue Ezekiel is saying the son is not responsible for the sins of his father.

    Yup, gotta be one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen.

    .
     
    #4 evangelist-7, Oct 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2012
  5. Winman

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    Isn't sin something you do? If not, what is it? Please explain if you are so knowledgeable.

    God did not create men to sin, now you sound like a hyper-Calvinist. God created men with free will, this allows men to sin if they choose to do so.

    You are correct, God hates sin, so why would God create men to sin? You are correct, that doesn't make sense. So obviously God did not create men to sin.

    Show me exactly where it says that in scripture. I challenge you to show that.

    Paul said no such thing. Paul said that by Adam sin entered the world, and death by sin, and that death passed upon all men FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED.

    Read it again carefully, it does not say SIN passed upon all men as you are falsely teaching here.

    You finally got something right. Men are not born dead because of Adam's sin as many falsely teach.
     
    #5 Winman, Oct 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2012
  6. evangelist-7

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    Sure, except ...
    The medical community says our DNA is inherited equally from both parents!
    And therein lies the rub, as they say.

    .
     
  7. Scarlett O.

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    Sin nature is not in the DNA. If it were, then no one could be saved. One's DNA cannot be altered at will or upon a decision to follow Christ. The Bible never says that Jesus Christ's blood cleanses our DNA. It says that it "cleanses us from all unrighteousness."


    Well.....where is unrighteousness and wickedness in the body? Is it in the DNA? No. The Bible says unrighteousness and wickedness are in the heart and mind - metaphorically and spiritually speaking. Not physically. That's where the spiritual sin nature is.



    • The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked - who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, try the reins even to give every man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:9-10
    • Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee? Jeremiah 4:14
    • If we had forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a foreign god, would not God search this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart. Psalm 44:20-21
      [*]Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Psalm 139:23-24
      [*]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:22-23
      [*]T
      he sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:7


    It's the consciencious and inner and spiritual mind and heart that are sinful, not the DNA. If the DNA was the root of the sin or even the literal heart, as a pumping muscle, and mind, as the brain tissue, then one could perform surgery and alter the problem.

    One cannot.
     
  8. billwald

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    >Sin nature is not in the DNA. If it were, then no one could be saved.

    Then why do saved people continue to (intentionally?) sin?

    Jesus was the first test tube baby. We don't know if he had any human DNA.
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    The same way the First Adam was human, did he have dna from a woman ?
     
  10. saturneptune

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    And the reason this is true is that Adam rebelled against God and Eve was deceived. It really makes no difference why. Scripture says sin was passed down through Adam.
     
  11. saturneptune

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    Why do we insist taking what Scripture says and not accepting it by faith and disecting it in a laboratory. The Bible is not a college Biology book. It is the living word of God. It is a book of faith. This is the same mindset that sets up the endless Calvin threads. Let the Lord be the Lord. He is the Creator, not us.
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

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    Ok.

    I personally believe it was.

    I don't see why not. But on the other hand he must have Mary's DNA to correctly have David's liniage or even Abraham's.

    As God created DNA to make human beings in the first place, why not assume he could do it again. However, as I stated before I think his blood line was essentially connected to both Abraham and David.

    Why couldn't God appropiately re-ordered Jesus inhereted DNA to inlcude the development of a Y chomosome? Turn on a gene here turn off a gene there.

    Sin is a spiritual condition not passed on by the nature of DNA. Sin is not a physical disorder but a spiritual one that affects natural order. Thus though DNA itself does not pass on sin, the spiritual condition is refelected in genetic deformities.

    I think my position is already clear which of those choices I adhere to. But any of those are valid possiblities. However, I think that the problem you face may be that you think sin is a genetic trait rather than a spiritual trait. The natural problems we have in our DNA are sympomatic of the nature inherited spiritually rather than our spirituality taking direction from our DNA.
     
  13. evangelist-7

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    I applaud all of you for your carefully-thought-out responses!

    IMO, our sin nature being a spiritual problem (which has been passed down) is a very valid theory.

    Let's look at Christianity's view of what constitutes a human being:
    -- body
    -- soul (mind/intellect, will, and emotions)
    -- spirit (empty, which explains why man searches for God, or spiritual fulfillment, etc.)

    So, is the sin nature passed down through the soul, or through the spirit?
    IMO, the obvious choice is the soul ... all 3 parts could easily be tainted to cause a person to be a sinner.

    My view has always been that a human being's nature is such that he/she HAS TO SIN.
    However, the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in a person who has been born again
    is capable of leading the co-operative born-again person to be an overcomer (of sin).

    But, of course, this is departing from the topic: What caused Jesus to be sinless?

    .
     
  14. Thinkingstuff

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    My personal perspective or thoughts on this matter is the that source of the inhereted stain of sin in the individual human being would be the Spirit according to your dichotomy but from the spirit the Soul and the body are affected. Thus when created God breathed into us the spirit it is that spirit that is stained by our sin affecting the whole being. And it is that which is inhereted. Which is why I believe that it was very important for Jesus to join himself to humanity through his incarnation and it is that aspect which is being delt with by being born again.
     
  15. evangelist-7

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    Okay, if you are correct, what would cause man to search for spiritual truth, fulfillment, etc.?
    .
     
  16. Winman

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    The problem is, the scriptures clearly teach we received our soul and our spirit from God and not our parents. So your view blames God and make him responsible for a sin nature.

    Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Jer 38:16 So Zedekiah the king sware secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, As the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life.

    Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    The word "they" points directly back to the word "man" in this verse, showing it is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

    We inherited our "flesh" from our parents. It is true that our flesh lusts against the spirit. But the flesh in itself is not evil, Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. The scriptures say any man who denies Jesus came in the flesh is the spirit of antichrist.

    We received our soul and spirit directly from God. We are not born evil, we are made upright, but all men choose to go out in sin and corrupt themselves.

    You should really study the scriptures before you teach ERROR to others.
     
    #16 Winman, Oct 4, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2012
  17. Thinkingstuff

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    A taint doesn't erradicate the nature of the thing it taints. Man is sinful yet man is also made in God's image. Sin doesn't erradicate God's image in us but taints it. Therefore our spirit's natural state is to desire God that doesn't go away but sin's taint causes us to not know where to go thus we substitute God for other things.
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    What is born of Spirit is "spirit" not soul or body (Jn. 3:6). What is dead is our spirit not our soul or body (Eph. 2:1-3).

    Our body, soul and spirit are ultimately received from God through the creation of Adam but that in no way attributes sin to God.

    Regeneration of our spirit is in part the union of the Holy Spirit with our spirit where the conscience resides as the governing inclination over the soul. The conscience has been renewed after the image of God in true holiness and righteousness as its basis of goverance over the soul. However, the regenerated man must consciously (soul) "put on" the dictates of a renewed conscience and "put off" the inclinations of indwelling sin.
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit within womb of mary, God was/is His Father, no way he got inherited anything sin wise, he was a unique case, Virgin Born!
     
  20. Winman

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    Baloney, God is a spirit, Jesus inherited his flesh from his mother Mary and could be tempted like any man. Any person who denies this is the spirit of antichrist.

    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham (not Adam), he was made like unto his brethren (the Jews) in ALL THINGS, and he SUFFERED being tempted. God cannot be tempted with evil (Jam 1:13).

    How could Jesus inherit the ability to be tempted from his Father when his Father cannot be tempted? Absurd.

    Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    Jesus could be "touched" with the "feeling" of our infirmities (weakness). He felt the tug and pull of the flesh just like we do. He was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin.

    You people don't get it, Adam and Eve felt the tug and pull of the flesh, yet they were not evil.

    Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    Eve experienced the tug and pull of the three lusts mentioned in 1 John 2:16, she saw the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), she saw the tree was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes), and that it was DESIRED to make one wise (the pride of life). These are the exact lusts in the exact order mentioned in 1 John 2:16. Eve had all of these lusts BEFORE she sinned. Was she sinful here? NO. She was not sinful until she obeyed her flesh in transgression of God's law. God had commanded her not to eat of this tree.

    There is nothing sinful about being hungry, we need that to survive. But Eve sinned because this particular fruit had been forbidden her. There is nothing wrong with beauty, it is not wrong for a man to enjoy his wife's beauty. But when a man lusts after another man's wife, that is sin. It is not sin to desire to be wise, the scriptures command us to be wise. But if we desire to be wise to exalt ourselves over our fellow man, then that is sin.

    Jesus had all these natural lusts of the flesh, but Jesus never obeyed these lusts when they would have caused him to sin against his Father. Jesus felt the tug and pull of hunger when Satan tempted him to turn stones into bread in the wilderness, but he did not obey Satan.

    You folks just don't get it. You believe a bunch of false doctrine taught by Augustine. Augustine believed all matter was evil. Pure superstition.

    Men sin because they have a free will and choose to sin, just like Adam and Eve. Jesus came in the same flesh we have, but never sinned. Anyone who says Jesus was different is denying he came in the flesh and is the spirit of antichrist.
     
    #20 Winman, Oct 4, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2012

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