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Was Christ Ignorant of OSAS?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, May 16, 2010.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    He did not say "I think Christ was ignorant" - rather he ASKS if the OSAS group believes that the Gospel statements of Christ listed in the OP and so far carefully avoided by the OSAS group here - are consistent with OSAS and if not - is the OSAS group then claiming that Christ was ignorant of the OSAS doctrine.

    His question seems to be about what the OSAS group might be claiming.

    To be fair to HP - some OSAS people have argued that before the cross there was no OSAS - as their way of trying to solve that problem.

    By contrast - Your reponse makes no sense because you suggest that if HP sees you as making an argument that Christ was in some way ignorant - then HP must be the one who thinks Christ is ignorant because... err um ... because you think HP thinks whatever he says YOU appear to think?

    Surely even you would have to admit that such reasoning makes no sense.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    You have nothing here to say forgiven saints go to Hell. HP has a way of avoiding context and quote single scriptures. Here is ONE scripture quoted...Mt 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you....Jesus didn't say your Heavenly Father but my"Jesus" Heavenly Father.
     
    #82 Jedi Knight, May 17, 2010
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  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is where it would have paid you to actually read the Matt 18 story referenced in the OP "I FORGAVE YOU ALL " is followed by "hand him over to the torturers until he should repay ALL".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    Quote the whole story and not ONE verse! So likewise shall "my" heavenly Father......who's?
     
    #84 Jedi Knight, May 17, 2010
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  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If you have some way to exegete Matt 18 so that the OSAS tradition gets out of the pickle it is in when it comes to Matt 18 - by all means - have a shot at it.

    Until then - the lesson is clear - the same revoking of forgiveness illustrated in the story is what Christ claims will be visited upon any fully forgiven saint that does not forgive others JUST AS they have been forgiven.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    Jesus said I give them ETERNAL LIFE AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH! This is VERY CLEAR.....wana wiggle out of this pickle?
     
    #86 Jedi Knight, May 17, 2010
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  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The death of the OSAS tradition in Matt 18 cannot be "undone" by observing some other texts that speak to the fact that some people actually do persevere firm to the end and will be taken to heaven. Though it might be fun to imagine that such an idea is actually exegeting Matt 18 -- it is not.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    Sorry Bob........ it's death in YOUR mind! I didn't see where SOME of Jesus sheep have eternal life. You don't study John much do you?
     
    #88 Jedi Knight, May 17, 2010
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  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: You might need to be more expressive to be convincing JK. You might try a bigger stick when you pound the pulpit. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  10. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    You won't be convinced.....I put that for others to see.:smilewinkgrin:
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Or as Bob otherwise calls "forgiveness revoked," a bogus doctrine, nowhere taught in the Bible.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    While I find your dedication to avoiding the text of Matt 18 to be quite remarkable -- on the flip side - that means that your actual Bible exegesis of the text of Matt 18 remains - "underwhelming".

    Here is a thought - imagine that the "sola scriptura" testing of doctrine is "a good thing" EVEN when it comes to carefully studying Bible texts like Matt 18 that flatly contradict the OSAS traditions of man.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    I won't bother to cast an answer to you.......your attitude is condescending and would do no good. Funny thing how SOME fretful "I can still go to Hell" professors have haughty attitudes and cling to their doctrine? Oxymoron......You might wana abandon that ship mates.
     
    #93 Jedi Knight, May 18, 2010
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  14. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

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    I read this post to mean something like this...

    -If OSAS were true, then salvation wouldn't be conditional upon obedience.
    -Several verses in Matthew indicate that salvation is conditional upon obedience.
    -Therefore, OSAS is not true.

    Is that an accurate restatement the argument? If not, please clarify. (Please, anyone who supports the above, feel free to reply.
     
    #94 dwmoeller1, May 18, 2010
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  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is too bad that you don't practice what you preach. There is no sola scriptura practiced here. You have extricated a man-made doctrine from a parable, doctrine that is nowhere else found in Scripture. Parables don't teach doctrine. They illustrate doctrine that is already taught elsewhere in Scripture. That is a basic principle of hermeneutics. But you have stretched this parable to teach something that it doesn't teach--no, not in the parable, and not anywhere else in the Bible. That is not sola scriptura. What it is, is the teaching of man (or perhaps of a woman, maybe even EGW--just a guess).
     
    #95 DHK, May 18, 2010
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  16. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

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    FWIW, the doctrine of eternal security has some significant problems. Too many verses indicate that one cannot be secure if in a state of disobedience. A person who is living in sin should not be secure in their salvation. Eternal security also depends largely upon salvation being a definable, point-in-time event. Scripture doesn't really give absolute support to this conception of salvation - it may speak of it in those terms sometimes, but other times it speaks of salvation as more of a process. In the end, the doctrine of eternal security depends too much on being definite about things on which Scripture is sometime indefinite.

    I believe the doctrine of perseverance of the saints to be a position which does a much better job of taking into account both the passages about not being able to "lose" one's salvation and also the verses which indicate that salvation is not always to be seen as absolutely secure.
     
  17. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

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    I am not OSAS but I grew up as such. I know the doctrine well enough to know that the above is a straw man. You have unfairly characterized the doctrine - some may actually use this as a license to sin, but no serious proponent of the doctrine believes this way. OSAS would be just as strong as you in denying any sort of license to sin.

    OSAS is no more inherently dangerous than your own position. I could point out that your doctrine is dangerous because it causes the believer to constantly live in fear and insecurity. Such an characterization of your position would be just as fair/unfair as your above.

    Its best to deal with doctrines fairly and without resorting to strawmen to disprove them.
     
    #97 dwmoeller1, May 18, 2010
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  18. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

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    This is fallacious reasoning. That one cannot lose eternal life doesn't exclude them from choosing (explicitly or implicitly) to reject it of their own free will.

    Most who are anti-OSAS don't believe that salvation can be lost at any moment due to a sin. Most would agree that losing salvation takes a person deciding to reject Christ in some way - for instance, a conscious and explicit rejection, or an implicit rejection (living in unrepentant sin). The idea that a single action at any point in time could be a loss of salvation isn't really the typical view...not for those who are doctrinally trained at least.
     
  19. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

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    Lets posit a person who claims to be saved and lives as such for a period, then for several years lives in unrepentant sin (ie. his works are not lining up with his faith), and then later repents and rededicates his life to Christ. Was this person saved the whole time or not? When it comes to questions like this the doctrine of eternal security has no good answer even though, by its own standards, it should. Its the inability of OSAS to deal consistently with all scenarios that cause it the most problems.
     
  20. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1 New Member

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    Which doesn't negate the possibility that a person might choose to willingly reject the eternal life and choose to disbelieve what they previously believed.
     
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