Was Isaac Watts a Pre-Trib-Dispensationalist?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, May 5, 2015.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    http://scottaniol.com/wp-content/uploads/Aniol2.pdf

    It is apparent from the following that Isaac Watts bore no resemblance to the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the parenthesis Church as some on this BB like to claim. In fact he was just the opposite, a covenant premillennialist who understood the following:
    ........................................................................................:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-

    It should be obvious to anyone who reads the above that the dispensationalism of Isaac Watts bore absolutely no resemblance to the pre-trib-dispensationalism of the "Rapture Ready" folks on this BB! Watts states unequivocally that GOD has rejected National Israel just as I have stated on this BB numerous times presenting the following as Scriptural proof:

    Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
     
  2. revmwc

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    If he did and I haven't read much of his work he would be following early church fathers who taught it:

    We see:

    Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) "was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

    In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just."

    let's check another:

    "Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.

    In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

    “We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

    And another:

    "Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:

    In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

    “We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

    Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”

    So here we see at least three early Christian leaders who were looking forward to Christ return before the Tribulation. From around A.D. 150 to A.D. 350 they felt the Lord's imminent return would come. Then the church married the roman empire and many of these truths were hideden to support the Roman view. So Issac Watt would be following early church teachings if he did teach it. As would all who hold the Pre-Trib view of eschatology.
     
  3. blessedwife318

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    I always find it interesting how pre-tribbers like to use the rapture and the Imminent return of Christ interchangeably, but then turn around and make a distinction between the return of Christ and the rapture.
     
  4. OldRegular

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    They will twist Scripture like a corkscrew to support their views. That link to Watts was provides in an attempt to prove that Watts was a dispensationalist. he did talk about dispensations but as the OP shows his doctrine bears no resemblance to Pre-trib-dispensationalism!
     
    #4 OldRegular, May 5, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2015
  5. OldRegular

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    Watts did not hold a pre-trib-"snatching away" of the "parenthesis"Church as is clearly shown in his remarks. Furthermore he clearly states that God has cast aside National Israel as I have contended on this BB for 10+ years. So you people who try to defend your doctrine using Watts are flat wrong! Live with it!
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    Are you saying that holding to that viewpoint is heresy, and that pre mil views you will accept?

    And how can it be a heresy, as it states that jesus will return ay his second coming, which is the thing the bible teaches?

    We can argue the timing, if its pre/.id/post/post mil/a mil, but NONE of them are heresies, just that some are closer to the bible than others!
     
  7. OldRegular

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    NO! I said:
    Then I said:
    Just respond to the question posed in the OP!
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    Uh no they don't
     
  9. DHK

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    Baptist theologian John Gill in the 1700's wrote:
    --Two resurrections separated by a thousand years. Read more extensively. He calls the first resurrection "the rapture."
     
  10. DHK

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    Gill further says:
    He firmly believes that he will be taken when Christ comes and thus escape the fury of the Antichrist (or The Tribulation).
    Gill believed in a pre-trib rapture. There is no doubt about this.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    This thread is about the claims made that Isaac Watts was a dispensationalist. From the link you provided I showed that Watts had the same view of National Israel that I have stated many times; that he had the same view of then Church that I have. He was Covenant Premillennial. I am amillennial but we both had the same view of the Church and National Israel. So live with it!

    Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
     
  12. OldRegular

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    The OP is about Isaac Watts! John Gill was a Covenant premillennialist. He had the same view of the Church that I do! If you are interested in John Gill read his commentary on Matthew 21:43 but do not deliberately derail this thread because it shows you were wrong about Watts!
     
  13. DHK

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    Gill believed in the pre-trib rapture. That much is evident.
    Concerning Watts, it has already been demonstrated that his dispensations are very similar to Scofield's, that he is a premillennialist, that Christ will come and then set up his Millennial Kingdom on earth. Isn't that enough?
     
  14. OldRegular

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    No it is not enough. The doctrine of Isaac Watts was in no way similar to that of pre-rib-dispensationalism contrary to your claims. It was straightforward COVENANT PREMILLENNIAL and he had the correct view of the Church as I showed in the OP from the link you graciously provided. I will repeat the OP for your edification.

     
  15. DHK

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    You do realize that almost all the dispensationalists on this board do not believe everything Darby has to say. We have been trying to tell you that.
    Of course we differ from Watts as well.
    Isaac Watts was a musician as well as a theologian. Much of his theology was expressed in the almost one thousand hymns that he wrote. One of the most famous hymns that he wrote, is the following, often confused with his birth (it is not), it is about the Second Coming, and then the physical Millennial reign of Christ on this earth:

    Joy to the world! The Lord is come
    Let earth receive her King!
    Let every heart prepare Him room

    And heaven and nature sing
    And heaven and nature sing
    And heaven, and heaven and nature sing

    Joy to the world! the Savior reigns
    Let men their songs employ
    While fields and floods
    Rocks, hills and plains
    Repeat the sounding joy
    Repeat the sounding joy
    Repeat, repeat the sounding joy

    No more let sins and sorrows grow
    Nor thorns infest the ground
    He comes to make
    His blessings flow
    Far as the curse is found
    Far as the curse is found
    Far as, far as the curse is found

    He rules the world with truth and grace
    And makes the nations prove
    The glories of His righteousness
    And wonders of His love
    And wonders of His love
    And wonders and wonders of His love

    Songwriters
    G. F. HANDEL, ISAAC WATTS


    This never happened in 70 A.D., very obviously!!
    It still has not yet happened. The Lord is not reigning.
    Satan is the god of this world. This hymn speaks of a future time which Watts is looking forward to.
     
  16. OldRegular

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    I have said that Watts was premillennial but he had the correct view of the CHURCH. That makes him a Covenant Premillennialist a world apart the pre-trib-"snatching away"-of-the-"Parenthesis"-Church-dispensational-premillennialist. Watts understood that Jesus Christ meant what HE said when HE told the Jews:

    Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Watts believed as noted on two previous occasions:
    And then:
     
  17. DHK

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    Perhaps you misunderstand Watts.
    The Bible says that God has cut off Israel. I don't have a problem with that. I also believe the same Israel has been cut off for a time. God has given many of the blessing that Israel had to the believers of the NT.
    Watts used a poor choice of words. I don't believe in replacement theology. I am not convinced he believes in that either. He says it is the "spiritual" kingdom that is given to the believers. Well that is somewhat true.
    You even bolded this statement of Watts:

    inherits all of the promises God made to Israel, albeit in spiritual form:
    --The believers do not inherit the physical blessings given to Israel, do they?
    He does not negate the fact that ethnic Israel still exists. Paul prays for them in Romans 9 and 10. he was not a lunatic.

    What does he mean in his song"
    No more let sins and sorrows grow
    Nor thorns infest the ground
    He comes to make
    His blessings flow
    Far as the curse is found
    Far as the curse is found
    Far as, far as the curse is found

    Obviously, sins and sorrows are still here.
    Thorns and thistles infest THIS ground.
    This is the Millennial Kingdom he is speaking of.

    I believe you have misunderstood Watts.
     
  18. OldRegular

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    I have said that Watts was a Covenant premillennialist. That means he believed in a 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ with HIS Church on earth! He certainly did not believe in a pre-trib-"snatching away"-of a "parenthesis" Church. Furthermore, Watts correctly believed that GOD was finished with National Israel!

    I have shown you several times that you are wrong about Watts. You attempted to make Isaac Watts a supporter of pre-trib-"snatching away" of the "parenthesis" Church and failed! It is obvious you misunderstood! I didn't! Man up to it. As I have said before nothing you say can change history.
     
  19. DHK

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    There are a number of things here that you won't "man-up" to.
    1. Who said anything about any of us believing in a "parenthesis" Church. This is a false assumption on your part which is basically a false accusation or a lie.
    2. Who disagrees with Watts that God is finished with the nation of Israel, (at least for now).
    3. I believe you don't understand what we believe, and don't totally understand what Watts believes either.
    As has been posted before in chart form his comparison of the various dispensations is closer to Scofields' then Darby's.
     
  20. OldRegular

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    You believe in the dispensation of Grace don't you. You believe in a Jewish millennium and the restoration of National Israel don't you! Darby got the 7th dispensation out of Isaiah 32! Where did you get it!

    Check out post #2 in the thread "Out of Whose Womb"!

    I know what Watts said in the link you so graciously provided. I have been remiss in not thanking you!
     

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