Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Feb 23, 2012.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Was it Gods will and intention for Adam to bring sin into the world : For Rom 5:12 reads:

    12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Yes indeed it was God's will for Adam to sin. For the purpose of creation of the world was all for Christ..

    Col 1:16

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Eph 3:9-11

    9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    For Adam was made for a redemptive purpose; so how could adam fulfill Gods purpose without plunging all of His descendants into sin ?

    I have yet been able to find a scripture that says all things were created for adam, but we do find a Scripture that states emphatically, that all things were created for Christ or unto Christ.

    Now Christ eternal purpose was redemptive and involved the calling of the gentiles Eph 3:11, but lets pay close to the two words eternal purpose in vs 11

    11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    Eternal purpose is literally, the Eternal plan or compact that God made in eternity past, within the purpose of the everlasting covenant.

    Now many say at this juncture that they believe in the eternal purpose of Christ, but I am afraid it is merely lip service to the truth of Gods eternal purpose in Christ, because the very same ones will turn right around and deny that God wanted adam to sin. They say that God would have preferred not that adam sinned, but because he did sin, God foresaw it, so then God purposed Christ as a sort of back up plan ! But what kinda nonsense is that ? Thats actually contradicting and overturning the clear scripture teaching that that the Eternal Purpose was centered in Jesus Christ or its saying that Jesus Christ was secondary to Gods purpose of adam, which thinking is actually giving the purpose of adam the preeminence over the purpose of Christ, which undermines this:
    Col 1:18

    18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Now certainly, if Jesus Christ was a back up plan for the failure of adam, then adam had the preeminence over Christ in Gods First Purpose..

    This thinking is a total repudiation of the truth that all things [ Including adam] were created by and for Jesus Christ..
     
  2. JonC

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    I think that you are going to have to define what you mean by the God’s will.

    Did God decree Adam’s sin that it had to happen? Did He ordain Adam’s sin, not that it should happen but that in happening it fulfilled His plan? Do you view two wills, a hidden will? Is there a difference between God’s will, in what we should do, and God’s will or plan in what is to occur?

    This is a centuries old debate which, obviously, won’t be resolved and agreed upon on this side of eternity, much less this forum. But I think you probably have a lot of feedback coming your way J.

    For what it’s worth, I believe that all things, everything that was created and all events that occur, are for the glory of God and will have that end.
     
  3. DaChaser1

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    ALL depends if one holds to either infra/supra position!

    Did God ordain the fall of main, direct causing it, in order to have all things work to his glory and our good?

    Did God ordain His response to what He know would happen in the falls of both Satan/Adam, and already had ordain/predestined his paln of the Cross to be the means to rectify that? The fall would happen, as it was the realisedpotential of a creation that had 'free will" incorporated within it...

    I hold to position 2!
     
  4. billwald

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    What kind of a god lets his creation make the rules?
     
  5. JonC

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    I’ve always had a difficult time with these (mostly spelling them, so please forgive an error in spelling) J.

    Beza developed the theory of supralaparianism, and much of Calvinism today holds to this view. Calvin himself held to infralapasarianism and the five points of Calvinism were developed from an infralapasarianism stance. (In describing election, the Synod of Dort concluded that God chose a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race as the elect).

    Nevertheless, it is an issue that predates the sixteenth/seventeenth century. It is not dependent on the infra/supra position, the infra/supra positions are instead a reaction to the issue. This was the issue that caused Arminius to call for reform.

    It is a difficult issue. Good luck exploring it.

     
  6. DaChaser1

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    one that would allow for free will of His creations, at least 'as much as he could and still remain Sovereign!"
     
  7. DaChaser1

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    To me, important point o consider here is that God did NOT author Sin, but that he would have ordained the plan to make sure His creation would in the end be prestined again, and conquer/truimph over "Bad choices"

    Also, I ONLY see satan/Adam having a real free moral choice, NOT us today!
     
  8. JonC

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    Are you saying that it was not God’s will, but the result of Adam’s free moral choice that he sinned?
     
  9. Thinkingstuff

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    Either way you look at it Infralapsarian or supralapsarian both views make God the author of Sin.

    Which is just sad.

    Why not go back futher and blame God for Satan's Choice. Was it God's will that Satan would sin so that man would be tempted?

    In my mind both views go against what God has revealed about himself. I don't think Calvin ever went this far. However, admittedly the logical conclusion of reformed theology is expressed in this thread.
     
  10. JonC

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    Was God’s plan of redemption, then, a reaction to Adam’s choice to transgress His command?
     
  11. steaver

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    Here I thought I was the first one to recognize that God set Adam up to fail. I had a thread on this subject some time ago and thought it was a fresh perspective. Now I find out that it is centuries old :tear:

    Oh well, I kinda figured that I surely couldn't be the first person ever to understand these truths.
     
  12. JonC

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    I had one about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit actually being God. I was going to call the doctrine "Threeaty." But, someone beat me to the punch – I know how you feel.

    New truths are hard to come by.
     
  13. steaver

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    :laugh: I like it...... :thumbs:
     
  14. DaChaser1

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    No! rather that God had predestined that His Plan to handle what he had allowed Adam to do would happen!

    Not rect, as it was inplace and instituted before adam even chose evil!
     
  15. JonC

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    I understand your position as such (please let me know if I misunderstood):

    God knew that Adam (of his own free moral choice) would sin so God predestined his plan to handle what He was allowing to happen. This plan was in place and instituted before Adam chose evil.

    God created Adam morally free and responsible. Knowing that Adam would sin, God ordained (instituted in His plan) the Fall, so it was predestined before the creation of man. God therefore did not author the sin, Adam’s fall was in no way decreed by God (meaning Adam didn’t have a choice), but was ordained in that God implemented it in His plan. (“Classical” Arminianism)
     
  16. Moriah

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    Why should humans not have a choice whether to love God or not? To love God is to obey God. The angels had free will to choose if they would obey God or not. God wants humans to know good and evil and to choose Him of our own free will. The plan for salvation was made before the creation of the world. Before Jesus came and gave us the Holy Spirit, there were those who wanted to do right, but even those who believed in God and wanted to do right, they could not do right and never sin. Through the blood of Jesus, we are holy and perfect before God. When we work out our salvation, we become more and more Christ-like.
    The fact that God made the plan for our salvation before the creation of the world is proof that God gives us free will.
     
  17. JonC

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    DaChaser1,

    I just caught what happened. I was asking you if you were saying that it was not God’s will, but the result of Adam’s free moral choice that he sinned (which you answered). I just wanted to make sure I was understanding your statement.

    I was asking Thinkingstuff if he viewed God’s plan of redemption as a reaction to Adam’s choice to transgress His command. He made a couple of statements about predestination, but I didn’t understand what he was saying about the subject of the thread. I believe he was implying that Adam sinned apart from the will of God, and therefore God did not author that evil.


    Not really sure what Moriah’s comment has to do with it.

    Basically nothing was on except The Mentalist, so I was hanging out here to see how others viewed the topic. I don’t know why, I actually like The Mentalist.
     
  18. Moriah

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    What is so hard to understand about my comment having to do with the title of the thread?

    The title of the thread is was it God's will for Adam to Sin. Why does someone want to ask if it is God’s will for Adam to sin? How can anyone think God’s will is that Adam sin? Since Adam did sin, that shows we do have a choice. Why not say it is God's will that we have a choice, and God knew we would sin? Again, why say God ordained Adam to sin? That should naturally feel wrong to say.
    What is so hard to understand about my comment?
     
  19. steaver

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    Here's my question Moriah,

    Why did God place a forbidden fruit within the reach of Adam knowing full well Adam would eat of it and die?

    Would you place an object of death within your childs's reach knowing full well your child would disobey you and die?

    The only conclusion is that God purposed Adam to sin in order to make His power known and to glorify Jesus Christ.
     
  20. Moriah

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    The answer is because God wanted us to choose. Adam was no baby, so why use the analogy of a baby? It can be misleading to use the analogy of an infant with no understanding whatsoever.

    You cannot accept the simple yet powerful truth, that it is about our having a choice and choosing to love God of our own free will.
     
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