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Featured Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Feb 23, 2012.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jon

    Yes, Adam was created for Christ's Redemptive Col 1:16

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: purpose !
     
    #21 savedbymercy, Feb 24, 2012
  2. marke

    marke New Member

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    It would be improper to say God made or caused Adam to sin, just as it would be improper to say that the only purpose for sin entering the world was to please God, if the Bible teaches that God is not pleased by sin. The only reason sin could possibly have been allowed into the world by a God who hates sin is if the entrance of sin was a necessary part of what God needed involved in the salvation of man. Otherwise sin is just a game God plays for His own pleasure for unknown reasons.

    Because God wanted men to respond to His call in love and receptance before He would let them 'eat of the Tree of Life' and have eternal life, he established the ability to choose or reject (as well as the responsibility to receive or reject) God as a personal choice prerequisite in man's salvation.
     
    #22 marke, Feb 24, 2012
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Of course God wanted Adam to choose, but that does not answer the question. God knew Adam would choose to sin and die. Using the analogy of a child is perfect, for Adam had no knowledge of good and evil, he was innocent and ignorant, just as a child.
     
    #23 steaver, Feb 24, 2012
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Wasn't he told not to eat of the fruit & like any child, is then drawn to his own (lets call it willfulness). Then is that child not sinful before an almighty & righteous God?
     
    #24 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 24, 2012
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  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    mar

    Thats your reasoning, however adam was made for a redemptive purpose. Col 1:16

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
     
    #25 savedbymercy, Feb 24, 2012
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    So all that happens in this world both good and evil, plays a subordinate role or a supporting role in the redemptive grand scheme of things. Paul understood this sublime truth when He wrote to timothy 2 Tim 2:10

    10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    Notice, he endured all things for the elects sake, not everyone in the world, but the chosen ones, that they [ the elect] might obtain salvation [ an experiential knowledge] of that which is in Christ Jesus..

    also 2 Thess 2:2

    14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    hence all the sin and evil thats in the world today, from the garden of eden, was purposed by God from all eternity, for it was no mistake, or accident that Adam sinned, but all was in pursuit to this end:

    Rev 5:12-14

    12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.


    13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    Rev 7:9-12

    9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


    10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

    11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

    12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

    Yes, it was to this end, that creation came into existence, with all its sin and shame, Oh what wisdom and Power..

    Rev 4:10-11

    10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
     
    #26 savedbymercy, Feb 24, 2012
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Had you said that it is God’s will to give Adam a choice although He knew Adam would sin, but not that it was His will for Adam to sin, then I would have understood your statement (you almost did here, but instead you phrased everything into a question – but I think that this is what you are implying).

    So, I take it that you believe that Adam sinned of his own free will and apart from the will of God (please correct me if I’m wrong).

    God did not decree the Fall, that it should happen, but God also did not ordain the Fall that it would happen based on Adam's choice. He did not “permit” that sin, but was unable to prevent it because of the freedom He gave to Adam (He did not “ordain” the sin that in occurring it worked in accord with a plan or for the good).
     
    #27 JonC, Feb 24, 2012
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  8. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Any time you give freedom of will to a being there is that possibility of sin. God knows this but divine love is such that the freedom was given anyway. However, God anticipated man's fall and provided for his redemption.

    Thats a lot different than saying God made it inevitable that man would sin because then God is the author of sin.
     
    #28 Thinkingstuff, Feb 24, 2012
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jon c

    This statement is Blasphemy ! Saying God is Unable to do something for any reason, let alone because of mans so called freewil..
     
    #29 savedbymercy, Feb 24, 2012
  10. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    infralapsarians hold that God planned the race to fall logically prior to the decision to save or damn any individuals because, it is argued, in order to be "saved", one must first need to be saved from something and therefore the decree of the Fall must precede predestination to salvation or damnation.
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Would have to add to that my position held here, that God indeed had ordained that the fall would occur, that ADAM MUST have rejected God and been spiritual lost condition, but the Lord did NOT cause Him to sin, nor author of it!

    God "caused" the fall to happen, but was NOT responsible for the 'free will" decisions made by adam/Eve!
     
    #30 DaChaser1, Feb 24, 2012
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  11. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Which is why whether Infralapsarian or Supralapsarian God is relegated to being the author of sin. Which is against scriptures and the nature of God.
     
    #31 Thinkingstuff, Feb 24, 2012
  12. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    So in your view is God Sovereign or not?
     
    #32 DaChaser1, Feb 24, 2012
  13. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    God ordained that the fall would happen for His greater Purpose, but used the decision that He knew Adam would commit as part of the process...

    Lot like God had ordained/predestined the Messiah was to come, when /how/set Him to die upon the Cross, BUT allowed also wicked people to make decisions to do as they willed to have that accomplished!
     
    #33 DaChaser1, Feb 24, 2012
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I was asking Moriah if this was what he was stating – not saying that this is what I believe.


    If one viewed that God gave Adam the freedom to choose sin, and then prevented Adam from choosing, then one could understand this to be a dishonest act on God’s part because it would make God a liar, and we might call that blasphemy as well. God wouldn’t be able to do it, not because of man’s free will, but because of His holiness, His nature. God cannot create a round square – not because of His ability, but because it is illogical. It is also illogical to argue that God will act in opposition to His nature – (again, this is not my view – I was trying to understand Moriah’s).

    I should have ended my post with a "?" so you would have known I was not claiming that statement.
     
    #34 JonC, Feb 24, 2012
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  15. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    God is indeed soveriegn but never the author of sin. Sin and evil are parasites and need good to exist. Evil and sin cannot exist in a vacuum. However, free will by its nature is "free" any outcome of this freedom is still under the soveriegnty of God which means God allows us to sin (ie does not will that we sin nor sets us up to sin but makes is so that even sin is used to bring about God's greater glory). Love demands free will. Man can chose but is unable to choose outside of God's influence as there is nothing outside his influence. However, do not mistake influence for God's will. God never willed that man would sin. God never set man up to sin either. God never created man and intended that it was inevitable for man to sin. God cannot sin and is not the author of sin. However, sin is not greater than God and it is even subject to his soveriegnty.
     
    #35 Thinkingstuff, Feb 24, 2012
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  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe that your comment does maintain divine providence without making God the author of evil (although I’m sure many will disagree). (I’d point out that the “order” is a logical and not chronological order – the statement does state “to fall logically” – but this might be missed).

    This is how Arminius addressed the topic:

    “God ordained the fall of Adam, not that it should occur, but that, occurring, it shall serve for an illustration of His justice and mercy.”

    “Because God, in His infinite wisdom, saw, from eternity, that man would fall at a certain time, that fall occurred infallibly, only in respect to His prescience, not in respect to any act of the divine will.”
     
    #36 JonC, Feb 24, 2012
  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    So you deny that the world was created for God's Greater Purpose in Christ as His original Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord

    Sounds like you are stating that God's Greater Purpose was a subordinate purpose ! Is that what you are saying ?
     
    #37 savedbymercy, Feb 24, 2012
  18. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    saying that the Lord had ordained that mankind would have a Messiah/saviour, who would come to die and purchase by his blood those who God had elected to save out from sinful humanity, that this would be done for His glory, and that what satan and Adam had done, was already planned by god before it would even happen to be redeemed and made greater than even before!

    I do NOT hold that God ordained and caused satan/Adam to sin, bu that He caused the fall by use of their decisions, as the falls MUST have happened, but God did not "force: either one to chose sin and evil!
     
    #38 DaChaser1, Feb 24, 2012
  19. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    If the fall must happen and God Caused the Fall then it follows God is the Author of sin. How is that any different that saying God ordained mankind to sin? And its at odds with the nature of God
     
    #39 Thinkingstuff, Feb 24, 2012
  20. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    jesus MUST die upon the Cross, was predestined/ordained by god, BUT those whose wicked herats placed them there were doing what they "wanted to do!"

    same way Fall MUST happen, but thosw who fell still made decision to do such!
     
    #40 DaChaser1, Feb 24, 2012
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