Was it the Cross?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by gekko, May 2, 2006.

  1. gekko

    gekko
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    reading through 1 Corinthians lately. so now i must ask this question because i hear so much of this topic. yet it is subtle amongst many.

    was it Jesus dying on the cross that took away our sin?

    or was that just a symbol of the sacrifice?
     
  2. Dustin

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    not the cross, the shedding of the blood...
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

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    The preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness; but to us which are saved it is the power of God unto salvation.

    Had it not been for that old rugged cross, the blood would not have been shed. Christ could have come down from the cross, but He chose to die that we might have life.

    Yes, without the shedding of blood there is no remission, but the preaching of the cross carries the power for salvation; the blood makes the atonement for our sins.
     
  4. Dustin

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    that's what i meant!
     
  5. JackRUS

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    I agree with Dustin and standingfirm, and I would add that Jesus defeated death by His resurrection as well. 1 Cor. 15:1-4
     
  6. gekko

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    ok. i understand that.

    then what does this verse mean?

    "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."

    1Corinthians 15:17
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

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    If Christ was not raised, the blood would be shed in vain. Christ would have died in vain.
     
  8. SpiritualMadMan

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    Isn't the physical Resurrection a "Proof" of two things?

    Jesus was who He said He was...

    His Sacrifice was Acceptable before God...

    Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

    Some theologians believe that the reference to Flesh and Bone vs Flesh and Blood is an indicator of Him having emptied Himself in scarifice...

    Mike Sr.
     
  9. J. Jump

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    Gekko if you will look at the salvation that is being talked about it is a present salvation, not a past salvation.

    If Christ had not been raised from death then He would not be seated at the right hand of the Father acting as our High Priest in the Aaronic line, meaning dealing with sin.

    If He hadn't been raised then those folks would still be in the sin that they had confessed.

    I think this is where a number of denominations go south. They say ALL of our sins have been dealt with past, present and future. But that isn't the case. Our past sins have been dealt with at the point of salvation by grace through faith. At that point our spirit is made alive and incapable of sinning.

    However our soul and flesh are still in darkness and still capable of sinning.

    When we sin we must be faithful to confess our sin and ask forgiveness and if we do then God is faithful to forgive us our sin. But the opposite of that is true as well. If we don't confess and ask then forgiveness is not given.

    Jesus' death and shed blood deal with salvation by grace through faith, but His side being pierced with blood and water flowing out as well as Him being raised from the dead have to do with the salvation of the soul (or sanctification).
     
  10. SpiritualMadMan

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    I thought Jesus was a Priest after the Order of Melchizedek? Not Aaron...

    Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
     
  11. J. Jump

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    He will be a priest after the order of Melchizedek after He returns. Melchizedek was priest and king. Christ is not currently ruling. He is currently High Priest dealing with sin as Aaron did. He will one day take over rulership, but it hasn't happened yet. Satan and his demons are still the current rulers over the earth.
     
  12. SpiritualMadMan

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    Well, I agree with some of what you say...

    And, disagree with pieces... [​IMG]

    I guess I'll need to take Greek to be sure, but, it sure looks like a lot of Hebrews 7 is Present Tense...
     
  13. Eliyahu

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    Was Jesus wrong?
    John 18:37
    Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.

    You misunderstand quite a lot about the Salvation and about the Forgiveness of sins.

    Your past sins were forgiven at the Cross.

    Your future sins were not forgiven at the Cross and left subject to your repentence and asking God for the forgiveness? Did Jesus make the sacrifice conditionally and have done it halfway
    ?

    Have you ever asked God for the forgiveness of your sins until you get the answer from Him? What was His answer to your prayer?

    You are confused between Aaronic Priesthood and Melchizedek-Christ Priesthood.

    Heb 7: 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron ?


    You revealed a quite a lot of problem with your faith!

    [ May 03, 2006, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]
     
  14. mman

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    Heb 9:27, "...and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."

    Heb 10:4, "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

    Therefore, it is only the blood of Jesus that can take away sins.

    Jesus stated in Matt 26:28, "for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

    Without the shedding of Jesus blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. However, the story doesn't stop there. He was buried and rose again the third day (I Cor 15:1-4), and this is the good news or gospel. Rom 6 shows how we obey a form of this death, burial, and resurrection.

    Why is the resurrection important? If God can raise Jesus from the dead, He can also raise us up from the dead when we are buried with Him in baptism and raised to a new life, forgiven of sins. Col 2:12-13 states, "12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses"

    Rom 6:3-17 puts it this way, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
     
  15. Eliyahu

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    Jump,

    Please read the followings:

    Heb 7:
    11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
     
  16. J. Jump

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    Eliyahu,

    Jesus was absolutely correct. He was born King. He is the King. He's just hasn't assumed the throne yet. Just like David was annoited king long before Saul was dead and removed.

    Christ is the King, but He's just not taken the throne yet. Praise God He will soon!

    I will check into your Hebrews 7 verse and get back with you on that.
     
  17. Eliyahu

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    Jump,
    The main point about which I raised the question was that you mentioned that the forgiveness should be asked again to God for each behavior after the salvation, which is wrong. I hope you clarify on this issue.
     
  18. J. Jump

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    Eliyahu there are a couple of problems that you are going to run into if you say that once a person is "saved" that all of their sin has been forgiven past, present and future.

    First there is I John 1:9 which is written to believers: If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    The confessing is in the present tense meaning if they are doing this now. If sins are already dealt with then why is confession needed and why would someone have to seek forgiveness if all their sins were already forgiven.

    How do you deal with the footwashing where Jesus told Peter that he was already washed, but parts of him needed to be washed. It's the same with Christians. Our spirits have been completely washed, but our flesh and soul are still in darkness and capable of sinning.

    If our bodies sin then we must confess that sin and ask forgiveness.

    Now hopefully I can clear up the priesthood idea. I'm not saying that Christ came after the order (lineage) of Aaron. He is just ministering in the same fashion as Aaron. He is our advocate if we sin as per I John again I believe.

    If all of our sin is forgiven past, present and future then we have no need of an advocate.
     
  19. Eliyahu

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    Jump,
    As for Priesthood, it seems to be OK.

    As for the future sins and asking forgiveness, you are still confused !

    1. Our past was the future at the time of Jesus Christ at the Cross.

    2. You must distinguish between Confessing sins and Asking for the Forgiveness. Have you ever found that 1 John ask us to ask God for the forgiveness of sins?
    This is the main point where you are confused.

    We must confess our sins every day, every time, then we return to God, then God shows us that even such new sins were already forgiven at the Cross .

    You sound like a person who has never prayed God until getting the answer from God about the prayer. Have you ever prayed God to forgive your sins until you get the answer from Him?

    What was His answer? Did God say to you that your prayer is enough, and now I am gonna forgive you? Does God provide you with another forgiveness? or Does God show you that even such new sins were already forgiven at the Cross and therefore you can be thankful furthermore to God?

    Please try to pray God until you get very,very clear answer, then you will find what I am saying is correct.

    Please don't be confused between Confessing Sins and Asking Forgiveness!

    If you continue to ask Forgiveness, it means that you don't believe that The Forgiveness at the Cross was Complete and Perfect and you are askking God to send Jesus again so that He may be crucified again.
     
  20. J. Jump

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    So Eliyahu do you have to confess your sins or not? If you do have to confess your sins why?

    Do you have to ask forgiveness of your sins or not? If you do then why do you have to do that?

    I have the answer before I pray because it is in the Word of God. God says if you confess and ask then He will grant forgiveness. This is all based on Christ's finished work at the cross. He does not have to die again. He died once and that is sufficient.

    But the only sin that was dealt with was your past sin. Your present sin and your future sin has the cleansing power of the blood of Christ only if you ask for it. It is not automatic as you suggest.

    If it were there would be no reason to have an Advocate with the Father, because that sin was already dealt with and we wouldn't need someone to act on our behalf.
     

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