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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Rebel, Feb 24, 2015.
What do you think?
I think we should ask the money-changers in the Temple.
No. How many pacifists chase merchants out of a place with a whip and knock over tables with animals for sale?
By pacifism, I mean opposition to war, killing, or doing someone physical harm, on moral and religious grounds.
No. Jesus is God. God is immutable. God ordained wars and wholesale slaughter in the Old Testament, and will lead the charge at Armageddon.
That's not the picture of God that Jesus presented. Remember turn the other cheek?
It's been a while since I engaged in a "violence" thread. When I get to a computer I'll have a better post. But, in summary, I believe God advocates violence in certain situations, and even demands it of us today in certain situations.
I think we can gauge by Matthew 10:34 ("Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.") and Revelation 19:15 (From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.) that Jesus was more than likely NOT a pacifist.
However, it would appear upon examination of Matt. 19:19 (love neighbor as yourself), Matthew 5-7 (Sermon on the Mount), and even Luke 10 (the Good Samaritan) that Jesus himself calls us (who are not God) to be pacifistic.
Pacifists in our gospel ministry? Perhaps. But we also read:
Romans 13:3-4 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Matthew 21:12 And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
As a minister of the Gospel, I can tell you that my pacifism ends when the flock is threatened.
Christians really do need to learn to use both a dictionary and the Bible.
Christians for the first centuries were pacifists.
D. L. Moody, C. H. Spurgeon, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Vernon Grounds, etc were pacifists.
Whom did they follow?
And God is very clear in His instructions aout OUR role [We are not God.]
"Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink."
...[the governing authority] is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Do you mean the same Jesus who killed every living thing on the planet, save for eight people and a handful of animals? The same Jesus who commanded Israel to destroy several people groups and ordained capital punishment for a multitude of sins and crimes? The same Jesus who drove vendors out of the temple with a whip? The same Jesus who commanded His followers to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with? The same Jesus who declared that He would return with an army to destroy His enemies?
No, I don't think He was a pacifist.
And Christians have the liberty to be pacifists.
But the question is, does the Bible instruct us to be pacifists, either by command or by example.
Jesus told his disciples to take swords with them. In fact, he told them if they didn't have one to buy one.
And when Peter cut off the ear of the soldier, Jesus told Peter to put the sword back in its sheath - NOT to put the sword away. He said those who live by the sword will die by it. He wasn't saying NOT to carry a sword and to use it if necessary, he was saying that Peter would probably be cut down himself if he didn't put that sword away. He was also trying to tell Peter that He had to die. It wasn't a lesson in NOT having and using a sword, it was a lesson in discerning the right time and place to use one.
Another example of that is then a group of Roman soldiers came to Jesus (apparently under conviction) and asked him "What should we do?" Jesus didn't tell them to abandon the military or stop fighting wars or lay down their swords. He told them to be fair in their military practices - "don't exhort people and be content with your pay".
Turn the other cheek? That's from the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus was having to undo all the erroneous teachings the Jews had been under. They had been taught the an "eye for and eye" mean retaliation
What if some idiot cuts you off in traffic? Let them. It's probably best to get far away from them. Don't try to cut back in in front of them.
But if some nut is trying to harm you or your family - STOP them. If a drunken driver is recklessly speeding the wrong way down the interstate, the police should STOP them by force if necessary.
Turn the other cheek does not teach pacifism. It teaches forbearance. That's completely different.
If we practiced pacifism, then there would be no military, no police, no authority, no protection, and no rest.
If we practiced pacifism, then Hitler would have won the war.
If Jesus practiced pacifism, then He wouldn't have made a whip out of cords and USED it and He wouldn't be returning for us and killing his enemies.
Aggression has its place and its time.
I am so sick of answering this misused passage. This passage is talking about revenge, not necessitated violence.
So, here again we have people using scripture to support one side of the arguement and people using scripture to support the other side.
shodan makes a good point that the early Christians were pacifists, for centuries, and robustheologian makes another good point when saying this: "However, it would appear upon examination of Matt. 19:19 (love neighbor as yourself), Matthew 5-7 (Sermon on the Mount), and even Luke 10 (the Good Samaritan) that Jesus himself calls us (who are not God) to be pacifistic."
Do some of you really think God and Jesus are as bloodthirsty as you seem to picture them?
Why does believing that Jesus was not a pacifist mean that one believes He was "bloodthirsty".
I think you have hyperbolized our belief.
Someone who's willing to defend oneself is not blood thirsty.
[offensive remark removed]
ScarlettO, Woody, you put up the good fight against the scripture twisting name callers. Nice job.
I got that from some of the comments I read.