Was man cursed or judged?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by webdog, Aug 22, 2005.

  1. webdog

    webdog
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    Genesis 3:14 "So the Lord God said to the serpent 'Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field;..."

    John Macarthur says from his study Bible, "The cattle and all the rest of creation were cursed as a result of Adam and Eve's eating, but the serpent was uniquely cursed by being made to slither on its belly."

    God did not tell Adam and Eve they were cursed. Why?
     
  2. Jarthur001

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    I think he was both judged and then after he was found guilty he was cursed with the sin nature. Later under the law man was cursed again..for he could not keep the law. Then...Christ was made a curse for us to free us from the curse of the law


    In Christ ...James
     
  3. webdog

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    But wouldn't they have been cursed the moment they ate of the apple and sinned? God did not tell them they were cursed, but told them their cattle, ground, etc was. Could it be that they were not given the curse of death (eternal seperation)? In not cursing Adam and Eve, and showing compassion on even Caan, where is the curse put on man leading to not being elected?

    The "curse" Christ was made was death and sin, correct? The curse of the law was in being unable to keep it.
     
  4. Jarthur001

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    Maybe the word "curse" was not used...but the punishment for sins or "curse" came none-the-less.

    Yes Christ took on our sin...and was cused. and also the wages of our sin...death.


    The last part i would ask you this...Why could man not keep the law?
     
  5. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Jauthur;

    IMHO man cannot keep the Law because of pride. Man struggles to keep the Law and the moment that he thinks he has had some success. He becomes proud of Him self and falls.
    There is a lot of truth in the statement that "Pride goeth before the fall" Taken from
    Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
    We call our selves Christians followers of Christ and yet there is not one Christian who does not sin.

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  6. johnp.

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    Hello webdog.
    Because 'curse' has the meaning of assigning to an evil fate, damn and doom. This was not their destiny.
    After handing out punishments and reducing the creation to frustration God dealt with the couple that caused His Son's death by being ever so gentle with them and without them knowing anything about redemption and before they ever knew to ask forgiveness the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. GE 3:21.
    They were as such forced into salvation.
    Not cursed that is the wrong word to use. Not at the time they took the fruit but in eternity the curse took place on those to be doomed.
    The curse that Christ was made was an assigning to an evil fate, damn and doom that was meant for those who sin. Since Christ was made a curse for others the others He was made a curse for cannot now receive any punishment because Jesus took it. It proves limited atonement.
    Rom 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

    john.
     
  7. webdog

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    Johnp, I'm glad you bring this up. I agree with your definition of curse "assign to an evil fate, damn and doom". When God was talking to Adam and Eve, he was talking about mankind and what mankind would go through now since they have sinned (childbirth, farming, pain, physical death). If some mankind (non elect) were predestined for hell, they would have been cursed at that moment along with satan. God convenienlty left this curse out of His address to Adam and Eve regarding mankind.

    OK. Here's another one of those times when I have said the same thing about what irresistable grace is and I get the "you don't know what we believe, your wrong" statement. Unfortunately, while I believe your view of irresistable grace is correct, you are wrong. Adam and Eve were saved the same way EVERY human who has ever lived were: by grace, through faith, the same as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


    :confused:
     
  8. johnp.

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    Hello webdog.
    Merriam Webster gave me the definition.
    "curse." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (23 Aug. 2005).
    Force is needed on the unregenerate to arrest them and turn them around. :cool: Any interference with another person's will, especially as it has to be turned 180 degrees, must be an assault upon the person. Since grace is irresistable that in itself shows it to be force. Violence is not always bad.
    Why? Granted for now that predestination somehow begins after the fall is it not like saying no one went to Heaven until Jesus died on the cross?
    Grant removed. Predestination has a long time attached to it. It means throughout eternity.
    ...while I believe your view of irresistable grace is correct, you are wrong... That sounds like a woman's argument. Yes I'm not no I am? That's the way I answer them. :cool: Would you care to explain. My best guess is that you say that I believe correctly what Calvinism teaches about grace but I am wrong to do so? If you believe that Calvinists believe as I do you are mistaken.

    A very difficult post this one, how did I do?

    Oh yea, everyone has been saved by grace through faith and that is a perfect example of us being seperated by a common language. :cool:

    john.
     
  9. Jarthur001

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    IMHO man cannot keep the Law because of pride. Man struggles to keep the Law and the moment that he thinks he has had some success. He becomes proud of Him self and falls.
    There is a lot of truth in the statement that "Pride goeth before the fall" Taken from
    Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
    We call our selves Christians followers of Christ and yet there is not one Christian who does not sin.

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Mike,

    I feel man can not keep the law because of his sin nature. Man can not stop sinning. No matter how hard he tries..it still does not work. remember that passage by paul that is a tounge twister.

    something like..i do not do what i will to do..but i but that which i will not to do...

    We just can not stop sinning

    This is why i hold to the 2 fold guilt of man..and the 2 fold offering atonememt/redeemed. You can also see a picture of this in lev. the peace offering..we get peace in Christ..and now are at peace with God. Notice also that in lev there is a sin offering and a transgression offering. At the cross the sin offering would be for our sin nature. the transgression offering would be for the very sins we have on our account.

    Man does have a sin nature that keeps him sinning. We hold this sin nature all of our lives. Yet after we are saved we have the holy spirit that can control the sin nature, if we "live in the spirit".


    In Christ..James
     
  10. johnp.

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    ISA 53:10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
    he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.


    God.
     
  11. Kismet

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    Greetings one and all,

    In all honesty, I do not think it is an either/or choice. That poses too few alternatives. I think one can say man was and is both judged AND cursed.

    There are several words translated curse. One means to bind, limit or confine. Another is a spell of sorts. Another represents an indignation that is followed by something punitive. Another conveys the thought of the object of the curse as being small, incidental, or insignificant. In the New Testament Jesus used a word which conveyed a wish or desire for something evil. Yet another is that which is abominable (and I am not talking about a snowman!). So yes man was judged, and this judgment confined and limited him, thus losing his consecrated status and became common or abominable. God was certainly indignant and continues in righteous indignation towards man. As such we too were children of wrath. All are under God's fiery indigantion and condemned. Some He has chosen out of this misery and confinement to express the unfathomable riches of His mercy. And death that was pronounced upon man (all men) certainly is an evil of sorts.

    Affectionately Yours,

    Kismet
     
  12. webdog

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    That is exactly what I mean, your view of irresistable grace is what I feel calvinism teaches (while some deny it)...but I do not agree with irresistable grace.
     
  13. webdog

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    Kismet, welcome to the BB, nice to meet you.
    The problem I have with Adam and Eve being "cursed" is....in God's address to them, He cursed everything around them, BUT NOT THEM. If any line of the human race were to be predestined to hell, He would have addressed them at that time. Why would He curse dirt and animals, and not man? Because we are the object of His affection, made in His image. Physical death was a sentence based on God judging their sin, but they were not cursed. Failure to have faith in the One to come meant eternal death, but they were saved in the same manner as you and I, by grace through faith, not election.
     
  14. johnp.

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    Hello webdog.
    Scripture teaches irresistable grace.

    Man was created in the image of God but he lost that image in the fall and we are now made in the image of man.
    Gen 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. " 3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
    We are in man's likeness not God's and to ask in advance, "Why then do Christians need to be conformed in the image of God if we are already in that image?" Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
    And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. 1 Cor 15:49.

    He did. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." GE 3:15
    He put emnity between the Children of God and the children of the Devil.

    john.
     
  15. webdog

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    God put enmity between satan and mankind. The first part of the verse would have to be mankind. The second part was prophesy that would be fulfilled. This verse shows the struggle between God and satan played out in the hearts (and history) of man. Christ fulfilled the prophesy at the cross when He crushed the head of the serpent. All believers share in this victory.
     
  16. johnp.

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    Not Satan and mankind webdog but between her off spring and the Devils offspring, why two offsprings?

    john.
     
  17. webdog

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    Who's satan's offspring? Was "her" offspring born with the same enmity between Eve and Satan?
     
  18. johnp.

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    Her offspring were the: ...but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
    Satan's offspring were: JN 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
    The Cain and Abel tribes.

    Can you chose your father webdog?

    john.
     
  19. webdog

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    God in his mercy has put enmity between men and satan; so that, though all mankind love his service and desire sin, yet all invariably hate himself. If it were otherwise, who could be saved?

    God places a natural animosity between Satan and mankind. Enmity has the idea of ill will, hatred, and a mutual antagonism. Satan's hatred of Eve was nothing new; it was already present in the garden. But the "friendship" Eve and the serpent seemed to enjoy earlier in the chapter is finished. There is now a natural fear of Satan in the heart of man.
    If we are born naturally rebellious against God, we are also born cautious and afraid of Satan. One must be hardened to willingly and knowingly serve Satan. Instinctively, we don't serve God or Satan; we serve ourselves (which is fine with Satan, just as long as we don't serve God).
     
  20. johnp.

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    Hello webdog.

    Where does this come from? Why does it say that God put enmity 'between' if it was all inclusive? GE 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers;...?
    And the scripture is what for this? I take it you are saying man loves to serve Satan and sin but all of us hate him by nature? Prove it.
    Who indeed can be saved? But you don't mean saved you mean enabled. Saved is for those that are saved.
    MK 9:17 A man in the crowd answered, "Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18 Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not."
    How much the son knew we do not know but I think it is reasonable to say that one must be hardened even though you will not accept that God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Rom 9:18.
    Where do you find this? It is not Gen 3:15 is it?

    john.
     

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