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Was Mary a Biological Mother or a Surrogate Mother for Jesus?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Eliyahu, Jan 21, 2008.

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  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I thought you gave up your typical exaggeration and groundless libel against the oponents of the debate. Do I deny Virgin Birth because I deny the Biological Motherhood of Mary?

    I believe the Virgin Birth, but do not believe that Jesus was from the sinner's egg. You have not been wakened up from the wine of RCC completely yet.

    OH Dear ! Don't you know that the Apostle's Creed contains lots of errors and is full of heresies? This is why I can safely conclude you are not wakened up from the wine of RCC yet !

    Ovum need another 23 chromosomes, which means the Sperm is essential. You are pleading with the mystery when you cannot answer !
    What do you think Jesus was doing before He came into the world? Was He sleeping? YOu are far away from understanding the Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ who worked during OT times. Why does Bible say Jesus is the Priest according to the Order of Melchizedek?

    You may be obssessed with Spaceship and Stork. The Holy Spirit arranged all things and that's what the Bible says. Read Heb 10:5 - too.

    So, you are claiming Jesus had only 23 chromosomes?

    So, you claim that God cannot create another Adam, the second Adam, without the egg of Mary, right?
    Can The Second Adam not be Human?

    I would not forget about your masterpiece, the Masterpiece on this issue,

    " the sin nature is not inherited thru female, but thru male", misunderstanding Romans 5:12 Anthropos meant only Man, not woman.

    Maybe only men commit adultery but no woman commit adultery.

    In the Spring only men marry and in the Autumn only women marry according to your theology.

    Your theology sounds like a comedy!
     
    #41 Eliyahu, Jan 21, 2008
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    So, what you are saying is that the Word entered into the egg of Mary, right?

    Then the Egg became a flesh, right?

    Now, Could He be a Human being with only 23 chromosomes in every cells?

    YOu sound like Jesus was different from all the other human beings because His flesh had only the woman's genes, right?

    Did the egg form a Brain as well?

    Did that brain remember what He discussed with Abraham ( Jn 8:56-8)?

    Do you believe Word became Flesh? If yes, which flesh did the Word become?
     
    #42 Eliyahu, Jan 21, 2008
  3. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Stating God could not cause Mary to conceive without the egg of Mary

    1 Limits the power of God
    2 infers Christ could not be born without the help of man
    3. Denies the fact that begotten is the true meaning of the word 'conceived' in Matthew 1:20 placing the focus on Mary instead of God.
     
    #43 standingfirminChrist, Jan 21, 2008
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The Bible says that the Word became flesh.
    The Word is pre-existent, is now, and always will be. It never ceased to be at any moment or nano-second in time. Obviously, if the Word can enter into a womb, into an embryo, then it can also enter into an egg. Is there anything too hard for the Lord?
    Christ took on humanity. He did so by being born of a virgin. It is called the Incarnation--enfleshment. His humanity began with a fertilized egg, or more specific with the fertilization of an egg. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. Normally a fertilized egg, not only is flesh but grows into "more flesh" shall we say.
    You don't know how many chromosomes he had so why speculate. Do you limit the power of the Holy Spirit. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was totally man and totally God at the same time.
    What did I say about a woman's genes? I said he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. It was a miraculous event. It took place at the time of conception. Whatever the Holy Spirit did, he did. The secret things belong unto the Lord. A finite mind cannot understand an infinite God.
    The brain develops rapidly during the first month of the pregnancy. He had a human brain. He took upon himself humanity.

    Philippians 2:7-8 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
     
    #44 DHK, Jan 21, 2008
  5. cowboymatt

    cowboymatt New Member

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    So lets talk about this notion of "sinful flesh" or as it was much later called, "original sin."

    Could it be that Jesus did in fact have the same DNA as the rest of us, and yet despite this remained sinless?

    To put the question differently, what is it that damns someone, sin nature or sin? "All have sinned" (Rom 3.23), NOT "all have sin natures." Thus, if Jesus had the same sort of humanity that all of us have (that was begun when God invented Adam's DNA), that doesn't make his sacrifice on the cross in anyway void. Had Jesus sinned, then his sacrifice would have been tainted; seeing that he did not sin means that his sacrifice was perfect.

    Or to put it still another way, falling short of God's glory has nothing to do with what we inherited from our parents. It has everything to do with the fact that we each have given into temptation. Jesus did not...but Jesus' sinlessness would mean nothing to any of us if he was not in fact human like all of us.
     
    #45 cowboymatt, Jan 21, 2008
  6. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    You sound that Jesus may have the flesh different from human flesh because He had flesh only from the woman, right? Is that the Humanity which you have been talking about?

    Brain is formed when the body was formed from the Embryo. If you claim that the egg became a flesh, then the brain might have been developed from the Egg alone, and it might have had some thoughts and the learning process. But on the other hand, Jesus remembered He met Abraham, and claimed He had existed before Abraham was ( Jn 8:56-8). Then that person of Jesus having the memory of knowing Abraham, taught the brain from the egg, is this what you are saying?
     
    #46 Eliyahu, Jan 21, 2008
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No, I claim as the Bible teaches, that Christ has two inseparable natures, one divine, and the other human. When he walked the face of this earth he walked it as a human laying aside his divine attributes but not his deity. He was totally God and totally man all the time. This is quite evident while he was in the womb of Mary. He chose not to use his divine attributes at that time, though He was God.

    On the way to the cross he told Peter to put up his sword, reminding him that he could have called 12 legions of angels to defend him. He didn't have to go to the cross. He went voluntarily, of his own will. He said: "I lay my life down; I take it up again. No man takes it from me." It was his choice. No one forced him to the cross. He was always in control. He could have called the angels of heaven, exercising his divine power, but he didn't. In other words he laid aside that divine power of omnipotence in order that he would suffer as a man.

    He laid aside his divine omniscience in the womb and during his childhood knowing not that he had seen Abraham until he started his ministry. He only used his divine attributes when needed. He came to do the will of His Father, and always submitted to him. In other words, during most of the time on this earth he lived as a man, ate and hungered as a man, tired and thirsted as a man.

    Luke 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
     
    #47 DHK, Jan 21, 2008
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I hope everyone understands that both mother and father are equally affecting the genes of the child.

    Here is some report on this:

    A mother and father each pass an allele for a specific gene on to a child. If one of the alleles is defective and causes disease, the child will develop the disease according to a dominant-recessive pattern of inheritance. For example, cystic fibrosis (CF), a metabolic disorder that causes a progressive loss of lung function, is caused by a mutation in the recessive allele of a gene responsible for regulating salt content in the lungs. The recessive allele is unable to direct the production of a key protein, resulting in a salt imbalance that causes thick, suffocating mucus to build up in the lungs. If a baby inherits the defective allele from just one parent, no disease results. But the infant who inherits the defective allele from both parents will be born with the disease.
    http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761563786&pn=8

    Let's remember the Down Syndrome and Leukemia, are the mother's genes not affecting the child?

    Has there been any woman having the perfect genes only since the Fall of Adam and Eve?

    If the child received the defective genes, can he be blemish, spotless, and sinless?

    1 Peter 1:19
    But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    If the blood contained any Leukemia or Down Syndrome genes or
    Alcohol addictive genes, could He be blemish and spotless?
     
    #48 Eliyahu, Jan 21, 2008
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Jesus was perfect; his humanity was perfect; not because he had the pefect physical body as a "body builder" or was the most handsome or whatever you may be thinking, but because he was perfect as in sinless. He did not have a sin nature. In that way he was perfect.

    He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. Though this is emphasized over and over again, it seems to be continually forgotten or ignored.
     
    #49 DHK, Jan 21, 2008
  10. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    How do you know that He didn't know that He Himself met Abraham? How could He astonish the doctors and the people at His understanding? ( Luke 2:46-7)

    So, did His capacity to heal the diseases, feed 5000, walk over the water, know what He didn't see, teach the people are all from the egg of Mary? Thomas called Him God, Peter called Him Christ, John reported the Word was God. God appeared in flesh in Genesis 18. Could He not do it again? What if He appeared in a tiny flesh?

    Shall I interpret this for you?

    Head is laid upon the neck, on top of the body. The Body is the church. He has to prepare the church so that His Head may be laid down on it.
    He was talking about His Death at the Cross. He was not talking about His miserable human situation, which many people misunderstand. He had to die so that He prepare the Body of Christ.
     
    #50 Eliyahu, Jan 21, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2008
  11. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    How could the perfect person come out of the imperfect sinful human parts?
     
    #51 Eliyahu, Jan 21, 2008
  12. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    You really should try not to use science in your arguments.

    Downs is not an inhertiable syndrome. It occurs because the ovum in its formation did not divide its chromosomes properly and has an extra copy of chromosome 21.
     
    #52 Gold Dragon, Jan 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2008
  13. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    It doesn't need the details. What we need here is that we understand any part of human involvement can cause a defective person, which is contrary to the Person of Jesus Christ.
    What you know about the medical science cannot be claimed as the perfect one either, you may be found wrong some times later, though you may know a little more than the lay people as the science may develop further as time goes on.

    Adam lived over 930 years though he was condemned as a sinner after the Fall. However, Mary didn't live that long time at all. Neither Adam nor Mary could be perfect and blemish.

    The Ovum or any part of Mary cannot be blemish, and she could not pass the sinless DNA to Jesus for the Blood of Jesus.
     
    #53 Eliyahu, Jan 21, 2008
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Now you are thinking like a Catholic. Sinfulness, or the Adamic nature is passed from generation to generation by the man. The woman has nothing to do with it. As I mentioned in another thread, a cell is not sinfull in and of itself. Put a skin cell under a microscope, examine it, and tell me what you see. Do you see the wickedness, the sin, the evil nature? Of course not. The sin nature is not contained in a "pound of flesh."

    Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
     
    #54 DHK, Jan 21, 2008
  15. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    The God I believe in is omnipotent so he could do whatever he wanted with DNA, ovum, genes, sin natures, etc.
     
    #55 Gold Dragon, Jan 21, 2008
  16. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Why does it happen? Isn't it because the Sin entered the world?

    Was the Human being created with such defect?

    Can there be any single woman who has no single defect in her body, personality, thought etc?
     
    #56 Eliyahu, Jan 21, 2008
  17. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Your god can improve all the genes of the people, but he doesn't do !

    How wicked and merciless your god is !
     
    #57 Eliyahu, Jan 21, 2008
  18. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Is the belief that DHK and I have a Roman Catholic one? Or was it the well accepted belief of many of Christian theologians of the past?

    John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

    Luke 1:35

    And the angel answered and said unto her…
    The angel gave her an account of the manner in which what he had said should be effected, as well as observed some things for the strengthening of her faith.

    The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee.
    The words, "upon thee", are left out in the Syriac and Persic versions; but are retained in others, and in all copies: the formation of Christ's human nature, though common to all the three persons, yet is particularly, and most properly ascribed to the Spirit; not to the first person, the Father, lest it should be thought that he is only the Father of him, as man; nor to the second person, the Son, since it is to him that the human nature is personally united; but to the third person, the Spirit, who is the sanctifier; and who separated, and sanctified it, the first moment of its conception, and preserved it from the taint of original sin. His coming upon the virgin must be understood in consistence with his omnipresence, and immensity; and cannot design any local motion, but an effectual operation in forming the human nature of her flesh and substance; and not in the ordinary manner in which he is concerned in the formation of all men, (Job 33:4) but in an extraordinary way, not to be conceived of, and explained. The phrase most plainly answers to (le ab) , in frequent use with the Jews F24, as expressive of coition.

    And the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.
    By "the power of the Highest" is not meant the Lord Jesus Christ, who is sometimes called the power of God; but rather the Holy Ghost, as before, who is styled the finger of God, and power from on high, (Luke 11:20) (24:49) unless it should be thought that the perfection of divine power common to all the three persons is intended: and so points out the means by which the wondrous thing should be performed, even by the power of God; and which should not only be employed in forming the human nature of Christ, but in protecting the virgin from any suspicion and charge of sin, and defending her innocence and virtue, by moving upon Joseph to take her to wife. In the word, "overshadow", some think there is an allusion to the Spirit of God moving upon the face of the waters, in (Genesis 1:2) when, (tpxrm) , he brooded upon them, as the word may be rendered; and which is the sense of it, according to the Jewish writers


    From Matthew Henry's Commentary on Genesis 3:15:

    Notice is here given them of three things concerning Christ:—(1.) His incarnation, that he should be the seed of the woman, the seed of that woman; therefore his genealogy (Lu. 3) goes so high as to show him to be the son of Adam, but God does the woman the honour to call him rather her seed, because she it was whom the devil had beguiled, and on whom Adam had laid the blame; herein God magnifies his grace, in that, though the woman was first in the transgression, yet she shall be saved by child-bearing (as some read it), that is, by the promised seed who shall descend from her, 1 Tim. 2:15. He was likewise to be the seed of a woman only, of a virgin, that he might not be tainted with the corruption of our nature; he was sent forth, made of a woman (Gal. 4:4), that this promise might be fulfilled. It is a great encouragement to sinners that their Saviour is the seed of the woman, bone of our bone, Heb. 2:11, 14. Man is therefore sinful and unclean, because he is born of a woman (Job 25:4), and therefore his days are full of trouble, Job 14:1. But the seed of the woman was made sin and a curse for us, so saving us from both.
     
    #58 annsni, Jan 21, 2008
  19. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    The process of ova and sperm formation often results in these kinds of errors of missing or duplicate chromosomes. Most of the resulting sperm and ova are not viable and die off. Some of these errors are minor enough and are able to survive the system of checks and balances for these things. In the case of Downs it seems to be because chromosome 21 is the smallest of the human chromosomes.
     
    #59 Gold Dragon, Jan 21, 2008
  20. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Please don't tell me that you are saying that God is incapable of doing something like that AND calling him wicked! That's blasphemy!!!!!
     
    #60 annsni, Jan 21, 2008
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