Was Paul a false apostle? Scripture reveals he preached "another" gospel:

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Michael111, Jul 31, 2003.

  1. Michael111

    Michael111
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    "I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them to be false." Revelation 2:2


    THE 'LEAVEN' OF THE APOSTLE PAUL:


    Was the apostle Paul a false prophet? Did Paul preach 'another' gospel than that of Jesus Christ? Why wasn't Paul chosen as one of the original twelve, or chosen to replace the apostle that betrayed Christ? Why did Paul's 'conversion' result in blindness, when Christ performed miracles of restoring sight to many in the gospels? Why does Paul brazenly admit to things like:

    (stealing) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service." II Cor 11:8

    (boasting) "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

    (speaking NOT on behalf of Lord) "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting" II Cor 11:17

    (trickery and deceit) "Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!" II Cor 12:16


    We've been warned before about "devils in disguise" as "angels of light"... Here is a scriptural look into the mind of a deceiver - via the pages of Corinthians I and II. The devil's in the details:


    (Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ)

    "Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/16


    (Paul decides to pass judgment on someone)

    "And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just if I were present." I Cor 5:3


    (Paul decides to consult with Satan, not Jesus, concerning the man he passed judgment on)

    "hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." I Cor 5:5


    (Paul thinks himself better than anyone else)

    "I wish that all men were as I am." I Cor 7:7


    (Paul admits to injecting his own opinions into scripture)

    "To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):" I Cor 7:12


    (Paul, who is single, gives faulty advice on marriage)

    "Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am" I Cor 7:8

    "Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife." I Cor 7:27


    (Paul advocates that husbands should start living the single life again)

    "What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" I Cor 7:29


    (Paul advocates staying the same and not progressing forward)

    "Each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him." I Cor 7:20


    (What does Paul have against marriage?)

    "An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs:" I Cor 7:34

    "But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world - how she can please her husband." I Cor 7:34


    (strange talk)

    "In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is - and I think that I too have the spirit of God." I Cor 7:40


    (Paul expects to make money off the gospel that Christ commanded to be preached freely)

    "In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

    "If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?" I Cor 9:11


    (Paul loves the sin of pride)

    "I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast." I Cor 9:15


    (Paul decrees that a hairstyle can keep you from being a good Christian)

    "Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a discrace to him," I Cor 11:14


    (Paul even passes judgment on growling stomachs)

    "If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." I Cor 11:34


    (Paul curses an entire people who may not have heard Jesus' gospel)

    "If anyone does not love the lord - a curse be on him."


    PAUL DISTORTION OF THE WORD OF GOD:


    Here is but one time that Paul mis-quoted scripture. In II Cor 6:2 Paul asserts that God said something that God didn't:

    For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of my salvation I helped you." II Cor 6:2

    What Isaiah 49:8 REALLY says is:

    This is what the Lord says: "In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you; I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land and to reassign its desolate inheritances," Isaiah 49:8

    Why did Paul lie, distort scripture? And how would any believer defend this as something "O.K."?


    *** So that no one will accuse me of taking anything out of context - I will include surrounding passages in addition to referencing the chapter number and passage numbers for this next example:


    "Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast." II Cor 11:18

    ---surrounding passages---

    "In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool." II Cor 11:17

    "You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!" II Cor 11:19


    Here is Paul not only boasting as "the world does" - but expressing a "self-confident" attitude in this boasting! And then, shockingly, Paul confesses that what he says is not coming from the Lord. (who then is it coming from?) Then Paul admits that he is talking "as a fool"

    A boasting, self-confident, self-proclaimed foolish talker who admits that he is not speaking godly wisdom?


    II CORINHTIANS BOASTING, DECEPTION, AND FOOLISHNESS:


    (Paul causes the Corinthians pain and hurt on several instances)

    "So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you." II Cor 2:1

    "Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while." II Cor 7:8


    (Paul shows envy of other apostles, false humility, a need for congratulation, and more foolish talk)

    "I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the 'super-apostles', even though I am nothing." II Cor 12:11


    (Paul admits that Satan is in him - tormenting him)

    "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7


    (Paul resorts to sneaky, under-handed tactics - WWJD?)

    "And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal whith us in the things they boast about." II Cor 11:12


    (Nothing seems to stop Paul from his boasting)

    "I must go on boasting." II Cor 12:1


    (Paul's threat to punish - what happened to the love of Christ?)

    "On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others," II Cor 13:2 B


    Is this who founded the Christian religion? A man who admits that Satan is in him tormenting him? Again - what about this self-confession of demon possession:

    "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surprisingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me." II Cor 12:7


    Are Christians really that quick to accept the teachings of a man who openly admits that a messenger of Satan (demon) is tormenting him...?

    Especially when Jesus' works/miracles included healing the demon-possesed and casting out demons?

    Do you not think that Jesus would have wanted to 'cleanse' or heal the "supposed" apostle to the gentiles? Couple this with the fact that Paul's initial "supposed" contact with Jesus resulted in blindness?

    What if your preacher got up in your pulpit this Sunday, and then proceeded to tell you that a messenger from Satan resided in him... then why would you allow him to continue to preach the Word?

    Looking forward to some wonderful insight, and discussion as we discern the Truth together.

    Michael111
     
  2. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    Sorry, but clear reading above states this area is for BAPTISTS only.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
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    shouldn't this be in the humor forum?
     
  4. dianetavegia

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    Michael111, this is a Baptist Only section.

    Diane
     
  5. Mike McK

    Mike McK
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    One of the most bizzare parsings of scripture since someone on another board told me that the Bible mandated that preachers have bodyguards to "protect their annointing".
     
  6. KenH

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    Michael111, you need to remember to take your medicine.
     
  7. blackbird

    blackbird
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    Blackbird was born at nite--but it wasn't last nite!
    Blackbird
     
  8. Grasshopper

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    He has a very small New Testament.
     
  9. Mike McK

    Mike McK
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    LOL...
     
  10. Major B

    Major B
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    I suggest Geodon and Lorazepam, double dose, follwed by six months of non-stop Bible reading.
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    Moved to All Other Religions forum for discussion, with apologies to the good folks who normally post there.

    This one is really extreme! Anyone want to join in?
     
  12. Kathryn

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    Michael 111:
    No, he preached the same gospel as Jesus Christ.

    Paul was busy persecuting the new Church.

    God could cause blindness as well as restore sight. Paul was persecuting Jesus Christ himself, by persecuting His Church. God wanted to knock him off his horse and stop him from persecuting His church. He also wanted a conversion of heart from him and use him to help lead His Church.

    Read in context:

    Acts 9:4
    and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"

    Acts 9:5
    And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,

    Acts 22:7
    and I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?'

    Acts 22:8
    "And I answered, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said to me, 'I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.'

    Acts 26:14
    "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

    Acts 26:15
    "And I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.

    St. Paul is saying he is taking nothing from the Corinthians, and they are so willing to listen to any false gospel, the other churches were bringing him what he needed.

    Paul is being sarcastic.

    Just read in context:

    2 Corinthians 12:12
    The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.

    2 Corinthians 12:13
    For in what respect were you treated as inferior to the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not become a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

    2 Corinthians 12:14
    Here for this third time I am ready to come to you, and I will not be a burden to you; for I do not seek what is yours, but you; for children are not responsible to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

    2 Corinthians 12:15
    I will most gladly spend and be expended for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less?

    2 Corinthians 12:16
    But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

    2 Corinthians 12:17
    Certainly I have not taken advantage of you through any of those whom I have sent to you, have I?

    2 Corinthians 12:18
    I urged Titus to go, and I sent the brother with him. Titus did not take any advantage of you, did he? Did we not conduct ourselves in the same spirit and walk in the same steps?

    2 Corinthians 12:19
    All this time you have been thinking that we are defending ourselves to you. Actually, it is in the sight of God that we have been speaking in Christ; and all for your upbuilding, beloved.

    2 Corinthians 12:20
    For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps there will be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances;

    2 Corinthians 12:21
    I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.


    We would do well to imitate Paul, because he imitates Christ as we should.


    Paul has authority to judge what is going on in the church.

    Paul excommunicated the man, so he can repent and be saved. He has this authority.

    Paul is talking about celibacy.

    So? He clearly states this.


    What is wrong with that?


    Nothing. This is good advice for the bishops and clergy and the reason Catholic priests do not marry.

    Not so strange. It makes sense for those who commit their lives to serving as priests, nuns, bishops.

    You need to read the whole paragraph in context. You left out the part where Paul says he did not exercise this right in order that there be no hindrance to the gospel of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 9:11
    If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?

    1 Corinthians 9:12
    If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ.


    Read it in context. “All this I do for the sake of the gospel, that I may share its benefits with others.


    He thinks woman should have long hair and men short. I liked when women covered their heads in church too. He has a good point.


    He is talking about not coming to Church just to eat. Eat at home.

    1 Corinthians 10:16
    Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

    Galatians 3:10
    For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

    (Continued next post)
     
  13. Kathryn

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    I suggest a better translation of the Bible for you that is clearer:

    Douay Rheims

    Isaiah 49:8
    Thus saith the Lord: In an acceptable time I have heard thee, and in the day of salvation I have helped thee: and I have preserved thee, and given thee to be a covenant of the people, that thou mightest raise up the earth, and possess the inheritances that were destroyed:

    2 Corinthians 6:2
    For he saith: In an accepted time have I heard thee; and in the day of salvation have I helped thee. Behold, now is the acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.


    He is challenging the Corinthians to test themselves that they are in the faith.


    St. Paul is not saying he is possessed by Satan, he says he has been given a thorn in his side. We today use this expression. Perhaps it is a disease or perhaps it is the Jews, his own people, who continue reject Christ. He has his own cross to bear that is a thorn in his side.


    Satan torments all of us at some point. He did Jesus too.


    Acts 9:15
    But the Lord said to him, " Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

    Acts 9:16
    for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."

    Acts 9:17
    So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

    Acts 9:18
    And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;

    Acts 9:19
    and he took food and was strengthened.

    Acts 9:20
    and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God."

    Study the Bible through the eyes of the Catholic Church and you will understand what it means. You are tearing phrases out of context. You seem to be coming from the perspective of a Muslim who hates St. Paul. St. Paul was chosen by God to repent and become an apostle of Jesus Christ.

    God Bless
     
  14. Yelsew

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    Should have read further before posting.
     
  15. Kathryn

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    This is similar to the attacks against Peter, I see here so often: Why did Paul even need to confront Peter to his face? Why was Peter so sinful. Why did Peter deny Jesus Christ? Why didn't Jesus Christ make Paul the Pope instead of Peter? Paul was a better person and a better choice.

    God Bless
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Our Muslem friends hold this view of Paul.

    I was not aware that any Christians joined them in such eisgesis of scripture regarding Paul.

    Who is this guy anyway?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Kathryn

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    Bob: This is why I told him he seems to be coming from a Muslem perspective. He says he is a "follower of Jesus Christ" which can mean Jesus is a prophet. My understanding is that Muslims believe Paul started the Church and distorted the teachings of Jesus Christ. To them Paul is the bad guy and Jesus Christ was a good prophet.

    God Bless
     
  18. Michael111

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    Revelation Chapter 2 starts out:

    "UNTO the angel of the church of Ephesus write;" Rev 2:1

    and then verse 2 states:

    "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil; and thou has tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

    WHAT'S THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE CHURCH OF EPHESUS AND REVELATION 2:1?

    You guessed it... THE APOSTLE PAUL. He was the self-proclaimed apostle that founded the church of Ephesus. He was a liar, and was not an apostle of Jesus. He was counterfeit.

    And there are 14 epistles full of evidence of misquoting scripture, boasting, not speaking on behalf of the Lord, strange doctrines, opinion presented as truth, envy, false humility, and some particularly venemous rants - such as the following:

    (Paul advocates castration for those who disagree with his doctrine on circumcision)

    "Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Gal 5:11/12

    Paul's wicked rant aimed at those of the circumcision - he wants some to just go ahead and cut it all off? Why are people defending the devil when he exposes HIMSELF as that via the scripture? And this flimsy argument that I am taking something 'out of context'...

    Whether these passages were the only thing on a page - or whether they appear in the bulk of a page - they are still 'evil leaven'. And if it was just one verse that was questionable - that would be one thing... But it's verse after verse after verse. It's amazing how intensely people defend Paul even knowing that Paul was not the Messiah, he did not travel with Jesus and the other apostles, and Paul can do NOTHING for them on Judgment Day. But still they cling to Paul as some sort of 'Hero' or 'exalted apostle' even referring to him the 'greatest apostle' -

    Michael111
     
  19. Kathryn

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    Michael: Rather than going on to new material, why don't you refute my responses to all your other questions previously posted. I look forward to your criticism point by point. You actually asked some good questions especially about why not to marry. Let's go into each question in depth. Or another good one, was why Paul said to "imitate me". I am more than willing to explore this in depth with you.

    God Bless
     
  20. KenH

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    Michael111,

    It might be helpful if you would state why you are anti-Paul. Did you get this false idea of yours from a cult, a solitary false teacher, or make it up yourself? Of course, the ultimate source of what you are espousing is Satan.
     

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