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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Justified, Sep 8, 2002.
What was so bad, or good about slavery?
Try being a slave sometime and see if you like it. Maybe that will answer your question.
I'm assuming that you were talking about the slavery of Africans in the United States that ceased after 1865.
What was so bad about it?
It was a sin against God in that fact that people were treated with disdain and hate.</font>
Families were forced apart and almost never reunited.</font>
Rapes were frequent and very, very ugly.</font>
Beatings were considered behavior modifications.</font>
Literacy was discouraged.</font>
In essence, one race exploited another race and treated them as sub-human. That is a sin. To treat another human being as a beast of burden and to hate them because of it is a sin.</font>
In all fairness to justified, there were cruel slave owners and there were good compassionate ones (if there can be such a thing). Some slaves chose to stay with their masters after the emancipation. I live in a historical area just outside of Philadelphia in Bucks county Pa. A true story of a slave owner in Bucks county who upon his death left his son in the care of his trustworthy slave to look after and raise. So not all master/slave relationships was like the T.V. show "Roots". It was an unfortunate time in our country but it still goes on in the continent where we bought them from.
I certainly agree... but I'm sure you would not hesitate to say that the institution of slavery was profoundly evil.
Individual owners could be "kind" and grant their slaves legal freedom after serving for a time, but that does not change the moral outrage of a system that thinks it is proper for one person to own another who is also made in the image of God.
Did you ever read the book of Philemon?
Onesimus, who was a slave had robbed and fled from his Christian owner Philemon. Paul led him(Onesimus the slave) to Christ and what did he do?
He sent him back to Philemon (his owner) with the very letter.
Why didnt Paul help him escape?
[ September 08, 2002, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Ps104_33 ]
More than a few times.
I'm not sure you can make an exact comparison between the kind of slavery we had in the United States and the kind of slavery in the context of Philemon. Furthermore, Philemon was given a letter from Paul to his owner asking for his freedom. Paul was making a concession to the culture and instead asked for something even more revolutionary that freedom for the slave... He asked that the runaway slave be treated as a brother in Christ -- dramatically changing the relationship.
Also, it seems that Onesimus had decided to make things right with his master and Paul was assisting him, perhaps preventing him from being executed or treated harshly.
Justified and a few others... with the exception of Literacy and rape, this is how most fundy Baptists treat and look upon homosexuals, so I guess I see where slavery is not really that bad in the eye of some fundy's.
Hey Post-it, that's a lie. Since you are not gay, nor a fundie, and have no first-hand knowledge at all concerning how homosexuals are treated in fundie churches, may I suggest you limit your responses to subjects you know something about.
Again you bring up Onesimus! Many use this as
an excuse for slavery.
His "owner," being a believer, had the same restric-
tions placed upon him as did those of the older
times in Israel.
[*]He could have borrowed money from his
"owner," and was thus enslaved in order to pay
the mone back.
[*]He may have been the child of someone who
owed the "owner" money.
[*]He may have been caught in theft and was
thus repaying for that theft.
[*]He would have been automatically freed at the
next Yavel (Jubilee--occurred every seven years).
There were restrictions on treatment, too.
This was Not Like American Slavery!!!
Many in the united states are similarly slaves.
[*]Slaves to the credit cards and car payments
[*]Offspring of a debtor who must pay off the debts
[*]Thieves who owe or are paying restitution
[*]Only they must pay to the last farthing, thus
remaining in slavery past seven years.
[ September 09, 2002, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
The slave owners, didn't see that they were doing these things to their slaves. They felt they were treating them fairly given the circumstances. They thought that they were "helping" them. People can talk themselves into any delusion when they have bigoted views.
Same as Fundy churches and individuals in those churches are doing the homosexuals. And yes, I have first hand knowledge of what is being done. You and the rest, won't see what you have done for at least another 50 years. You are as blind as the slave owners.
OK, Mr fundie basher, whatever. I'm not so blind that I can't see thru the hate in your posts.
Let me also go on record as saying this thread asks a horrible question and is fertile ground for a hateful conversation.
Hey, Mr. Curtis: homosexuality is a sin. Heard that yet? read your Bible, and stop condoning the sickening, CHOSEN behaviour of perverts!
He didn't. Read more carefully.
WHAAAT ?!!??!! Who are you yelling at ? You know we are on the same side, don't you ?
Finally, we agree on something. In the same blindness that Justified and the others look at this issue reminds me of the same blindness that they look at other issues.
Mine is not hate, rather hurt. As I write this my wife is on the phone right now helping a family friend who's fundy Baptist father hasn't spoken to him in 4 months now since he found out his son was gay. The young man was bleeding from the stomach over this treatment from his parents. They are treating him like he is DEAD. Imagine the harm this is doing. This happens everyday out there. They just want him back the way he was pretending for years. The Fundy Church is very clear on how to treat homosexuals. Expect them to change and until they do, don't treat them like your child, but rather like a stranger going to hell. They are sexual perverts and could have AID's. And of course pray for them. Oh, its ok if they are someone else's son or daughter, but if they are your's you must be gay too or made/allowed them to be gay. After all, they "learned" the behavior from somewhere. Bottom line, it is the parents fault.</font>[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry you have these experiences. Our church calls sin sin. And I do believe homosexuality to be sin. But it's like anything else in our church. We have yet to turn anyone away, for any reason.
But this thread is about slavery, and I have put my 2 cents in.
I think we need to look at the greater sin in these cases. When a father and mother turn their back on their son/daughter, that is a greater sin. The church supported slavery at one time because it was supported by the Bible. It's in black and white. They of course made the same excuses on the harsh treatment.
"Well, of course the Bible tell us to treat them right. So that's how we treat them. But it doesn't change the fact that they are still our slaves and decipline is required otherwise they will turn to sin or against us."
You can just about hear where to replace the slave words with homosexual.
I'm sure you don't realize the real problems the fundy church is causing homosexuals just as they didn't in the slave days. But if you were the one nursing the beaten slave (homosexual) back to health as we are doing, you would understand what I'm saying.
[ September 09, 2002, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
Since fundy churches are independant, there is no way to find out if they supported slavery or not. But the differences between biblical slavery, and the kind we had in America were vastly different, as it has been pointed out.
A true fundy church wouldn't address slavery, right ? Seperation of church & state. A true fundy church doesn't blow up abortion clinics, we don't try to stack the polls in our favor, we don't advocate for the removal or re-instatement of the death penalty.