Was the early Church 'Baptist'/Evangelical?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Jude, Jul 27, 2004.

  1. Jude

    Jude
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2001
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    0
    from another source...

    Dr. James McGoldrick, professor of Church history at Cedarville College, associated with the very conservative General Association of Regular Baptists, has written a book-length study of the attempts by Baptists specifically and evangelicals in general—often presented in such sensational and virulently anti-Catholic pamphlets as the enormously popular Trail of Blood—to trace a lineage of Evangelicalism back through Church history. McGoldrick enumerates nine tenets of doctrine to identify Baptists, a list which would also apply to American Evangelicalism in general:

    1. Sola Scriptura;
    2. A Trinitarian understanding of one God revealed in three fully divine persons;
    3. The complete deity and full humanity of Christ, the virgin-born Son of God, who was crucified for sinners, but rose bodily from the grave;
    4. The universal sinfulness of mankind and man’s alienation from God because of sin;
    5. Justification by faith alone;
    6. The doctrine of an "invisible" church;
    7. Only two ordinances, baptism and the Lord’s Supper;
    8. The separation of church and state as divinely ordained but distinct spheres of authority;
    9. The second coming of Christ.
    (From J. E. McGoldrick, Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Question in Baptist History. ATLA Monograph Series, No. 32. Metuchen, NJ: Scarecrow Press, 1994, 7-8)
    ...McGoldrick’s conclusion, after surveying all possible contenders throughout Church history is as follows:

    [A]lthough . . . groups in ancient and medieval times sometimes promoted doctrines and practices agreeable to modern Baptists, when judged by standards now acknowledged as baptistic, not one of them merits recognition as a Baptist church. Baptists arose in the seventeenth century in Holland and England (Baptism Successionism, 2; emphasis mine).
    In other words there is no lineage of Christians which one can trace back through Church history who believed as modern evangelical Protestants.
     
  2. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    But.........


    Jude........

    Early Christians *were* Baptists!

    They always preached, "Repent and Be Baptised!" :D

    Acts 2:38

    And, they were evengelical, "Those that were scattered went every where Preaching the Gospel". Acts 8:4

    So? Whats the problem?

    (Of course they were Pentecostal, too. But we won't go there. :D )
     
  3. MEE

    MEE
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/me3.jpg>

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2001
    Messages:
    1,271
    Likes Received:
    0
    When did a Baptist ever preached Acts 2:38? [​IMG] That is a complete Acts 2:38.....nothing changed?

    If so, would someone inform me! ;)

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  4. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    2,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bump...

    ? What ? No One wants in one this Melee? :D
     
  5. HisMercy

    HisMercy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Neither baptist or evangelical.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The early Christian church taught all 9 of those beliefs. This is why we STILL find them today - "sola scriptura".

    The RCC introduced errors into the church over the centuries until many of those early teachings were lost.

    In fact the deadly errors introduced by Catholicism corrupted the 9 to the point that even the view of the 2nd coming became either amillenial or post millenial.

    Praise God the Baptists have the 9 back again.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    When you bring up the point of church history - and the loss of truth over the centuries - you are really bringing in the subject of the great apostacy of the RCC and its dominon during the dark ages.

    It is impossible to review 2000 years of Christian history and ignore that 1300 year span in the middle of it. It had a huge impact.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    There are a number of other people outside of Baptist who believe the same things as Baptists. They just aren't Baptists by name. Baptists have only been around for about four centuries. Baptists were called Baptiss by others not the Baptists themselves.
     
  9. dean198

    dean198
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    323
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Yes and no.
    2. Yes and no. Did not use philosophical speech like 'one God in three persons.'
    3. Yes.
    4. Yes.
    5. Yes and no. The believed that obedience was neceessary for salvation.
    6. No! Invention of Marting Luther.
    7. Maybe.
    8. Yes.
    9. Yes.

    Dean
     
  10. Dan Todd

    Dan Todd
    Expand Collapse
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    14,452
    Likes Received:
    0
    The most I will say on this subject is that the early church was baptistic in doctrine!
     
  11. Jude

    Jude
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2001
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please cite early Church Fathers who held to 'Sola Scriptura'. Thank you.

    BTW, the Roman Church's history does have things that need to be repented of, and, does hold doctrines/teachings that are not properly 'Catholic'. I am NOT RC!
     
  12. Jude

    Jude
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2001
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  13. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Have I already said that I think Dr. James McGoldrick is cool?
    Well I do.
     
  14. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Messages:
    748
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jude,

    Please cite early Church Fathers who held to 'Sola Scriptura'. Thank you.

    "Justification by faith alone;"
    Invention of Martin Luther as well...


     
  15. Major B

    Major B
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/6069.jpg>

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    2,294
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, here is something different...evidence from primary sources. Kewl!!
     
  16. Jude

    Jude
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2001
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    0
    None of the sources claim 'sola scriptura'. They claim, as do many, that Scripture is our primary authority, but not apart from the Tradition of the Church.

    The second sources, regarding 'faith alone', I still maintain that nowhere in the early church do we find Luther's teaching, i.e. where the Church ever taught that faith did not include 'graced' works. It is true, that we cannot save ourselves. It is true that if we depend on the 'law' (and that system)we are doomed. But if our faith is centered on Christ, and trusting HIM ALONE for salvation (faith and works)we will be saved. The One who 'spoke' the universe into existence is the One who calls us 'righteous' in Christ, and is able to 'speak' that righteousness into our own souls.


    John 15.9-10 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
     
  17. Jude

    Jude
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2001
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    0
    In a quick search on the 'net', I cite these things...


    "The earliest Christian document outside the New Testament writings comes to us from Clement of Rome: The Letter of the Church of Rome to the Church of Corinth (commonly known as Clement's First Letter). It was so highly esteemed in Christian antiquity that for a while it was even accepted as part of the canon of Scripture in Egypt and Syria. Many scholars believe Clement is identified as the Clement mentioned by Paul in Philippians 4:3. Regardless, Clement was the bishop of Rome at the close of the first century. He was familiar with St. Paul's Epistles, and he certainly believed and taught that we are justified by faith:

    And we, therefore…are not justified of ourselves or by our wisdom or insight or religious devotion or the holy deeds we have done from the heart, but by that faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the very beginning (ch. 32:4).

    One might determine that Clement held a Reformed view of justification; however, Clement had more to say on the subject. In fact, it would lead future critics to say that Clement moved away from Pauline teaching toward ethical interests. Actually, Paul and Clement were saying the exact same thing. They both spoke of salvation in terms of requiring a comprehensive response on the part of the Christian: believing that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and living a life of holiness. Hence Clement would not only write of being justified by faith, but he would also say:

    "We should clothe ourselves with concord, being humble, self-controlled, far removed from all gossiping and slandering, and justified by our deeds, not by words (ch. 30:3)..." ....

    Without love faith can indeed exist, but can be of no avail (De Trin. XV 18, 32). Augustine

    Ignatius of Antioch (AD 35-107)
    The writings of another Apostolic Father from the East, Ignatius of Antioch, are further testimony of how truly far back this teaching reaches. Ignatius tells us that along with baptism, faith and charity, our works will be our deposits to receive what is our due:

    Let your baptism be ever your shield, your faith a helmet, your charity a spear, your patience a panoply. Let your works be deposits, so that you may receive the sum that is due you" (Letter to St. Polycarp, 6).


    Clement refers to several scriptural passages (Isa. 40:10; 62:11; Prov. 24:12; Rev. 22:12) to augment his plea to the Corinthians to persevere in doing good, which will eventually pay a reward:

    We must, then, be eager to do good; for everything comes from Him. For he warns us: `See, the Lord is coming. He is bringing his reward with him, to pay each one according to his work' (ch. 34:2,3).
    What is this reward we are to receive, this pay according to our work? Eternal salvation. For what are we being paid—our works? Partially, yes, but correctly understood! It is "our" work only insofar as it is our cooperation with God's grace as opposed to "the works of the Law." Hence it is God's work in us manifesting itself in the fruits of the Holy Spirit that lead us to salvation, beginning with faith, supported by faith, and persevering in faith. (Matt 10:22; Trent, sess. 6, ch. 8;)..."

    Ignatius' letters were written while on his way to martyrdom, and he recognized the importance of our actions "motivated by faith," as opposed to a "momentary act of professing" that faith:

    Those who profess to be Christ's will be recognized by their actions. For what matters is not a momentary act of professing, but being persistently motivated by faith (The Letter of Ignatius to the Ephesians, ch. 14:2).
    This is a corollary to our Lord's warning in Matthew 10:22: "But he who endures to the end will be saved."

    Polycarp of Smyrna (AD 69-156)
    Polycarp of Smyrna was an Eastern Father acquainted with Ignatius and well versed in Paul's Epistles. In Polycarp's Letter to the Philippians, he says: "…knowing that `you are saved by grace, not because of works' (Eph. 2:5,9,9), namely, by the will of God through Jesus Christ" (ch. 1:3).
    Polycarp affirms Pauline teaching, as did Clement and Ignatius. But he also affirmed the necessity of love, obedience and living a life of holiness. This is seen when Polycarp quotes St. Paul and then adds his own admonition, drawing from 1 John: "For `he who raised him from the dead will raise us also' (2 Cor. 4:14; 1 Cor. 6:14; Rom 8:11), if we do his will and follow his commandments, and love what he loved (1 John 4:11,12), refraining from all wrongdoing" (ch. 2:2,3).
    Let us remember that Polycarp conversed with the apostles, sat at the feet of St. John as Irenaeus tells us, and that the apostles obviously thought him to be a man of outstanding repute since they did appoint him Bishop of Smyrna. It would, then, be safe to say that Polycarp did not depart from Pauline thought, but instead felt quite comfortable to quote Paul and add his own qualifier "if we do…" Polycarp must have believed this was harmonious with the full corpus of Paul's teaching and that of the other apostles.
    Polycarp taught that there were a number of moral commands to which the Christian must adhere in order to inherit the Kingdom. Faith without meeting these moral demands will not be enough. Polycarp argued that anyone occupied in these three things: growing in the faith, accompanied by hope, and led by love, has fulfilled the commandment of righteousness (ch. 3:2-3). Drawing from the Scriptures he would also say: "`Whenever you are able to do a kindness, do not put it off' (Prov.3:28), because `almsgiving frees from death' [Tobit 4:10ff]" (ch. 10:2).

    Irenaeus (AD 130-200)
    Irenaeus, a Western Father, in his writings, Against Heresies, Book I, confirms the necessity of a life of love and holiness, as well as keeping our Lord's commandments in order to receive eternal life:

    But to the righteous and holy, and those who have kept his commandments and have remained in his love…he will by his grace give life incorrupt, and will clothe them with eternal glory (ch.10:1).
     
  18. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Messages:
    748
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jude,

    None of the sources claim 'sola scriptura'. They claim, as do many, that Scripture is our primary authority, but not apart from the Tradition of the Church.

    'Sola Scriptura' has no desire to toss out the traditions of the Church Catholic. The early fathers confirm that scripture has always been the sole rule and standard by which all teachers and dogmas alike are appraised and judged. It is a new teaching of certain heretical churches (e.g., RCC) that places tradition on a par with or above scripture.

    The second sources, regarding 'faith alone', I still maintain that nowhere in the early church do we find Luther's teaching, i.e. where the Church ever taught that faith did not include 'graced' works.

    Luther was not an original thinker. As my previous quotes demonstrate, 'Sola Fide' was and always has been the doctrine of the Church Catholic, notwithstanding the ravings of apostate popes and councils.
     
  19. Jude

    Jude
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2001
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    0
  20. Jude

    Jude
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/scott3.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2001
    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is absolutely ridiculous. Your words "ravings" and "apostate" betray your bias.
    How in the world you can claim that sola fide "was and always has been the doctrine of the Church Catholic" is beyond me. This is probably one of the silliest statements I've ever read on BB. 'Sola Fide' as defined by Luther appears in no Church teaching for the 1500 years prior to Luther. His 'teaching' was rightly condemned by Trent.
     

Share This Page

Loading...