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Featured Was the "fine linen", 'white'?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 10, 2015.

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  1. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    What? What does any of that have to do with our original discussion? You made the claim that the physical body of Jesus remained "spotlessly clean" throughout the pains of death. When I asked you for confirmation of that position, you requested me to challenge it with scripture, which I feel I did, providing a number of scriptures revealing just what Christ went through and how it would have changed the physical appearance of His body, rendering the physical shell far from "spotlessly clean."

    And then you respond with this...which isn't even seemingly related to our original discussion. Where are you getting your ideas, Gerhard?
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    <<< “Isaiah 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.”

    Another scripture from Isaiah revealing the nature in which Jesus would suffer. He would be beaten and scourged by the Romans to the extent that his appearance would be marred more than anyone else. He would barely be recognizable after the beating.>>>

    Yes, this Scripture <<reveal(s) the nature in which Jesus would suffer.>> This Scripture reveals his sinless nature in which He had confronted and overcome sin and evil all his days in the flesh.
    He had earned glorification in the body of his flesh; the Father rewarded his Son with the taste of Victory even in his darkest hour.

    “The hour is come: Glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify Thee.” “Behold! LOOK! AND SEE: My Servant shall deal prudently / properly / blamelessly. He shall be exalted / glorified / dignified / being lifted up physically and extolled in praise being elevated very high” --- upon the tree where the footstool of God is in the bow in the Cloud that was Christ.

    As high as Christ was exalted, so “ASTONISHED AT HIM” were his enemies. Such a crooked, evil and adulterous generation were they, He seemed like the marred and blemished to them. He, in his upright and stedfast meekness so towered above the sons of men, that they in their haughty own eyes looked down upon his form and status as disfigured, crippled and plagued by God. But those who smote Him and spit Him in his face, were prompted by “his visage / appearance / face / look of the eye”, so straight was it. When visage met visage, they were the ones who bent low and crawled away under his look.

    Jesus HAD the appearance he had BEFORE and DESPITE anyone so much as laid a hand on Him. It was because of Jesus’ “visage” he HAD, that He to the sons of men was appearing so shameful. So ashaming was He to them—so insulting and offensive—that they scourged Him to make Him look like one of them. But they could not—they were unable to—they had not the power to. Which is what drove them all mad with fury from that they had taken hold on Him in the garden of the olive press. But He was harder than the olive pit under their pressure. He was the Rock—the Rock to some the Stone of Stumbling; to few the Rock of their salvation. Nontheless, in that night and day of death’s bone, “He was despised and rejected of men”—of all, men. Because they saw themselves in Him on judgment day. Because “they saw that which had not been told them (before); and because they had seen from near that which they (before) had not heard.”


    PS

    Look the condition in which Israel had to eat the passover lamb, Exodus 12:9.
    Look the condition in which Israel had to choose the passover lamb, Exodus 12:5a.
     
    #22 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 20, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2015
  3. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    So, Jesus was spotlessly clean, and the whips left no marks? He never had any blood or dirt on Him during the scourging and crucifixion, but people just thought He did?

    How, exactly, would a Roman scourging make Jesus look like the common people? A scourging was designed to punish and harm. It was a very bloody affair. It was extremely painful. To say anything else is to deny the sufferings of Christ for us.
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Here is where you lost track, my friend -- here : <<<how it would have changed the physical appearance of His body, rendering the physical shell far from "spotlessly clean.">>>

    None of the Scriptures you gave, <reveal>, or, <confirm> anything of the kind.

    But when you read the Gospels' story, their single story tells you "blood" ONCE was "let fall : to the GROUND" by Jesus' own will and obedient suffering while NO ONE was near Him -- NO blood flowed thereafter; least of man's desire.

    Then if you read the end and after the end -- in fact three to four hours after Jesus had DIED and could shed his blood wherein was his LIFE of his own will no more, then only will you read of "something like / resembling ['euthus'] a (clod of) blood- ['haima'] -and-water protruding" from the wound of the soldier's lance made in his side --- of no blood or blood flowing from his hands or feet or face or back.

    "blood-and-water" is not the 'blood' of a living being. It NO MORE is "blood".




     
    #24 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 20, 2015
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  5. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    So Jesus was scourged and crucified, but He did not bleed? Man, you are so far off that it's astounding.
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    <<So, Jesus was spotlessly clean, and the whips left no marks?>>>

    Yes. That is how it stand written; and that is how Jesus triumphed; and you can see it in the whole of all his trials --- the DESPERATION of the 'judges' and 'executioners'.

    <<<He never had any blood or dirt on Him during the scourging and crucifixion, but people just thought He did?>>>

    No. He never had any blood or dirt on Him during the scourging and crucifixion, but people thought and wished and tried very hard to get <blood or dirt on Him during the scourging and crucifixion>. But they failed.
    Again, that is how it stands, written.

    <<<How, exactly, would a Roman scourging make Jesus look like the common people?>>>

    Like they looked like inside. They WANTED Him to look like themselves in their hearts. Again, they failed. That is how it stands, written. No success. They could not even kill Him; He had to lay down his life by the Power He only, had as God-in-Man, the Son of God, Jesus the Christ of God.

    <<<A scourging was designed to punish and harm. It was a very bloody affair. It was extremely painful. To say anything else is to deny the sufferings of Christ for us.>>>

    It is true for anyone except the Son of Man the Son of God, Jesus, the King of the Jews as well as of the Kingdom of God’s dear Son, the Kingdom of Light, the Kingdom of Heaven. To say anything else is to deny the sufferings of Christ for us. Yes! To say anything else is to deny Christ’s TRIUMPH over “the last enemy, DEATH”: his DEATH-FOR-US, not like us.

     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    When Jesus DID bleed, it IS written. When Jesus did NOT bleed, it also is NOT written. That is astoundingly spot on.

    You are almost as astounded as Jesus' judges and murderers were. You need get MORE astounded than they— by his POWER over them as over sin as over death itself. Because that POWER Jesus had in his suffering and “anxiety even unto DEATH”, is the “POWER” He had "To take UP MY LIFE AGAIN".

     
  8. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    That's not how it is written. I'm guessing from your posts that you believe Jesus's prayer in the garden is the only time He bleed. The Bible explains to us that BLOOD and water flowed from His side. Jesus was very much human while still being 100% God. The human body, if scourged and crucified, is going to bleed. And the Bible is clear in stating that, without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
     
  9. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    There is a time and place to argue from silence, but when you argue from silence in the face of obvious truth, you stand on shaky ground. Jesus was in a human body, and no human body could be scourged by soldiers of Rome and not bleed. It does not weaken Christ to say that Christ's body bleed. It in fact fulfills the scripture.
     
  10. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    WOW!!! It would seem that individual interpretations of the bible have helped spawn over 34,000 distinct Protestant denominations in 238 countries. I think Gerhard is a member of one I have never heard of. Do you think his 'doctrine' is correct? Obviously not. I do not think Christ had this in mind when he established the Church.
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Catholicism - general Christianity - is anti-Christ. The RULE of the Roman Catholic Church is UNIVERSAL. It holds the thinking of all civilized men captive, and STARVE it sadistically to eternal death.

    Or it wishes it could -- like those who let suffer and die our Lord Jesus to no avail but their own undoing.
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    <<<you believe Jesus's prayer in the garden is the only time He bleed.>>>

    That is the only time it is written. That was the only time Jesus bled.

    <<<The Bible explains to us that BLOOD and water flowed from His side.>>>

    It does not say BLOOD flowed from His side. It is written “like blood-and-water”. It was neither blood nor water. It was neither blood nor water which <flowed>. And even that which was neither blood nor water but “like blood-and-water” did not <<flow>> but “came out” / “protruded” WHERE IT STAYED.

    <<<Jesus was very much human while still being 100% God.>>>

    Yes, while still being alive and not yet suffering the dying of the death of death. But as soon as Jesus “hour had come” and “the power of darkness” and “the day of wicked men” and his suffering the dying of the death of death had BEGUN, the Scripture is valid which says that “HIS FLESH SAW NOT CORRUPTION IN DEATH”. Do and say what you like, I believe the Scriptures and the POWER OF GOD WHO RAISED CHRIST BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER HE DIED THE DEAD OF DEATH IN.

    <<<The human body, if scourged and crucified, is going to bleed.>>>
    Yes, it is. If God swore that it won’t, it would not. Never!

    <<<the Bible is clear in stating that, without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.>>>

    Yes. It is clear Jesus gave his blood wherein was his LIFE given for the remission of sins. Only his blood had that quality. His blood was very different than the blood shed by human lust. Were Jesus' blood shod by the lust of man after blood, He would not have been <<100% God>> or even 50% God. But because He shod his blood obediently of free will and earnestly desiring to eat the Passover of Yahweh and drink the cup of his Fury, Jesus had to be and indeed was, <<100% God>>.

    MEN HAD NO POWER OVER JESUS, MOST IN HIS HOUR OF DEATH’S ANGUISH OF SOUL— NOT EVEN OVER HIS FLESH. The Bible is clear about it.


     
    #32 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 20, 2015
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  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    <<<It does not weaken Christ to say that Christ's body bleed. It in fact fulfills the scripture.>>>

    It weakens Scripture to assume for written what never has been written in Old or New Testaments.

    It weakens the plain truth to say that Christ's body bled while his body never bled and while it is never written that his body bled --- EXCEPT ONCE.

    "Who offered up Himself a (LIVING) Sacrifice : ONCE FOR ALL."

     
  14. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    Again, you need to be careful in arguing from silence in the face of obvious truth. By your standards, there is a 17 year period in Abraham's life where he did nothing at all, because the Bible is silent on that period. It doesn't say he was doing anything, so obviously he was doing nothing.

    Also, what translation are you using? John 19:34 in the KJV reads "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

    So the blood shed for atoning for our sins came not from the scourging and crucifixion, but from the prayer in the garden?
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Whatever you like.

    I don't care.

    Your opinion added will change nothing to General Christianity --- Catholicism in its waywardness.

    NOR WOULD MINE.

    I witness for the sake of witness : to the glory and honour of God and his written word.

    Let my die, o God, busy working in your land. I have no land of my own.





     
  16. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    Laying aside all your 'the popes a dope' rhetoric. What you are claiming certainly sounds 'new & novel' to me. To quote another poster to this forum 'if you think what you believe is the clear teaching of scripture, you see something there that the early Christians did not'. Can you reference any serious theologians who believe as you do? I'm sure you will claim that the Holy Spirit brought you to this interesting interpretation of scripture. But, seriously, is there actually a church out there in Protestant Land that believes this stuff?
     
  17. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    You are conflating scriptures. The "living sacrifice" was a directive to the Romans and, by extension, those of us who believe to "present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." (Romans 12:1)

    Christ offered up Himself, as the writers states in Hebrews 7:26-28 "26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore."

    The writer makes it clear that Jesus, in His role as our High Priest, does not have to offer up sacrifice for Himself, as the priests of old had to, because the only required sacrifice was made when Jesus offered Himself as the sacrifice. A sacrifice requires death, and the Bible, as I've already said, states the bloodshed is required to atone for sin.

    What kind of church are you going to that is teaching doctrine not in line with that? This is not a Catholic vs non-Catholic thing, because I am far from Catholic. This is a Bible thing, and the Bible is clear on this matter.
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Ek is ’n dolerende Dopper
    Ek is ’n gryse Gereformeerde
    Ek is ’n sterwende Protestant
    Ek’s ’n ekstinkte Wit Boer
    ’n ‘College Dropout’
    uitgeskopte Adventis
    verwerpte politieke opportunis
    beunhaas bewonderde pianis
    flop teoloog
    ensovoorts
    Dog gelukkigste man van my, vrou en pa van my, seun en van my, dogters
    Maar bo alles is ek teruggenome wegloopkind van onse Vader in die hemele die Gewer van alle goeie gawes van bo, van onder, van links en regs, van oral sonder eind’ of ophou groot.
    Met my God loop ek ’n bende storm; spring ek oor ’n muur; en slaap ek die slaap van ’n dromer, soet …
    … die ewigheid in.
    Ek sal nie vrees nie; U is by my; U gaan my voor en U is my agterhoede. Ek kyk nie links of regs nie … op ewige arms onder dra U my deur.
     
  19. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    Ek het altyd gewonder of Engels was nie jou eerste taal, gegewe hoe jy skryf. Ek is van plan geen oortreding deur daardie kommentaar, Gerhard. Ek nie aan te veel mense wat gooi die goeie ou Afrikaans.

    **Not sure if that's even close, but it's the best Google translate would give me. Apologies if anything comes out wrong, Gerhard.**
     
  20. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    Ok, I'm not sure what you expect most of us to do with this post. Could you please provide a translation? BTW, when I asked my questions regarding the blood evidence revealed by the shroud I had not understood your doctrine of a 'bloodless atonement'. It makes perfect sense now that you have made that very clear. I'm sure that is not the only reason you reject the shroud as the possible burial cloth of the Lord. It's being in the possession of the 'evil' Catholic Church is enough for you not to have any interest in it. Contempt prior to investigation works well for many closed minded people.
     
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