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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2014.
Which bst fits the bible, and is it really that important?
I believe it was worldwide, and, YES, it's important.
A few of the many Biblical reasons for believing in the global Flood are briefly summarized below. For those who believe in the Bible as the inerrant word of God, these should be sufficient.
Jesus Christ believed the Old Testament record of the worldwide Flood. Speaking of the antediluvian population, He said: "The flood came, and took them all away" (Matthew 24:39). Evolutionary anthropologists are all convinced that people had spread over the entire Earth by the time assigned to Noah in Biblical chronology, so an anthropologically universal Flood would clearly have required a geographically worldwide Flood.
The apostle Peter believed in a worldwide hydraulic cataclysm. "Whereby the world [Greek, kosmos] that then was, being overflowed [Greek, katakluzo] with water, perished" (II Peter 3:6). The "world" was defined in the previous verse as "the heavens . . . and the earth." Peter also said that "God . . . spared not the old world, but saved Noah . . . bringing in the flood [Greek, kataklusmos] upon the world of the ungodly" (II Peter 2:5). Note also that these words katakluzo and kataklusmos (from which we derive our English word "cataclysm") are applied exclusively in the New Testament to the great Flood of Noah's day.
The Old Testament record of the Flood, which both Christ and Peter accepted as real history, clearly teaches a global Flood. Therefore, it seems to us that Christians, professing to believe in Christ and follow Him, can do no less. For example, the record emphasizes that "all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven . . . and the mountains were covered" (Genesis 7:19,20) with the waters of the Flood. This must have included Mount Ararat on which Noah's Ark landed, and which is now 17,000 feet high. This was no local flood!
Since "all flesh died that moved upon the earth . . . all that was in the dry land" (Genesis 7:21,22), Noah and his sons had to build a huge Ark to preserve animal life for the post-diluvian world—an Ark that can easily be shown to have had more than ample capacity to carry at least two of every known species of land animal (marine animals were not involved, of course). Such an ark was absurdly unnecessary for anything but a global Flood.
God promised that never "shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth" (Genesis 9:11), and He has kept His word for over four thousand years, if the Flood indeed was global. Those Christians who say it was a local flood, however, are in effect accusing God of lying, for there are many devastating local floods every year.
The earth's surface and sedimentary crust also bear strong witness to the historicity of a worldwide Flood, and the early geologists (Steno, Woodward, etc.) taught this. Most modern geologists have argued, on the other hand, that the earth's crust was formed slowly over billions of years. Yes, but consider the following significant facts.
All the mountains of the world have been under water at some time or times in the past, as indicated by sedimentary rocks and marine fossils near their summits. Even most volcanic mountains with their pillow lavas seem largely to have been formed when under water.
Most of the earth's crust consists of sedimentary rocks (sandstones, shales, limestones, etc.). These were originally formed in almost all cases under water, usually by deposition after transportation by water from various sources.
The assigned "ages" of the sedimentary beds (which comprise the bulk of the "geologic column") have been deduced from their assemblages of fossils. Fossils, however, normally require very rapid burial and compaction to be preserved at all. Thus every sedimentary formation appears to have been formed rapidly—even catastrophically—and more and more present-day geologists are returning to this point of view.
Since there is known to be a global continuity of sedimentary formations in the geologic column (that is, there is no worldwide "unconformity," or time gap, between successive "ages"), and since each unit was formed rapidly, the entire geologic column seems to be the product of continuous rapid deposition of sediments, comprising in effect the geological record of a time when "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."
It is also significant that the types of rocks, the vast extent of specific sedimentary rock formations, the minerals and metals, coal and oil found in rocks, the various types of structures (i.e., faults, folds, thrusts, etc.), sedimentary rocks grossly deformed while still soft from recent deposition, and numerous other features seem to occur indiscriminately throughout the various "ages" supposedly represented in the column. To all outward appearances, therefore, they were all formed in essentially the same brief time period.
The fossil sequences in the sedimentary rocks do not constitute a legitimate exception to this rule, for there is a flagrant circular reasoning process involved in using them to identify their supposed geologic age. That is, the fossils have been dated by the rocks where they are found, which in turn had been dated by their imbedded fossils with the sequences based on their relative assumed stages of evolution, which had ultimately been based on the ancient philosophy of the "great chain of being." Instead of representing the evolution of life over many ages, the fossils really speak of the destruction of life (remember that fossils are dead things, catastrophically buried for preservation) in one age, with their actual local "sequences" having been determined by the ecological communities in which they were living at the time of burial.
The fact that there are traditions of the great Flood found in hundreds of tribes in all parts of the world (all similar in one way or another to that in the Genesis record) is firm evidence that those tribes all originated from the one family preserved through the cataclysm.
Both. If its worldwide it is also local.
Keen insight WD, was waiting for that response.
It was worldwide as answered by Scripture.
3 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord shut him in.
17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.[a] 21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days. Genesis 7:3-24
The earth means the whole earth as the water covered the tops of all the high mountains under the heavens. And EVERY living thing under the face of the earth that lived or moved on land was wiped out.
So those holding to a local flood either have to hold to a less inspird bible view, or else accept scientific 'facts' on things like dating/aging?
Hey, I place a great deal of confidence into the science and mathematics associated with radiometric dating techniques and obviously am OE. I tend to lean toward a global flood, however, I see some good cases also made for localized flood.
But my guess is, this does not surprise you.
Good gravy, God gave Noah somewhere between 100 and 120 years to build the ark.
If it was just a local flood, then God would have made better use of Noah's time in just telling him to take his family and move temporarily to another place. Much less labor and effort. Besides - as others have said, both the Bible and science support a global flood.
Think a main reason soem reject worldwide flood was rgar it would mess up their evolutionary charts and table on geogology and daing of layers for example!
Exactly . He could have told Noah I'm gonna give you fifty years to pack up all your stuff and your family and move across seas and I'm gonna send all the animals to meet you there.
He destroeyed everything on land by completely covering the earth with water over the greatest mountains all over the earth.
That MAY be true for some, but I really don't think it is a major issue for most who hold to any form of evolutionary biology. If it does represent a majority of such....then I just do not understand why.
Even more curious...
I'm curious about this statement. I've always been told 'evolutionary' anythings rejected the Bible, Flood and all. Do you have a source for the statement?
Archie, I am "sort of" one of those sorts. I don't think of myself as "rejecting" scripture....though many would say so.
I posted the link.
Leaning toward global...
I have every confidence in the Biblical account. That doesn't do much for non-believers though.
Every civilization has a 'flood' story. That's not hyperbole, I've looked up many, many 'flood' stories and find them from the obvious one in the Bible to the Hopi Indians to the Asian Indians and there's something in some Siberian tradition from long ago. So, excluding the Bible, there are many flood stories, from all over the world. All of them include the people being evil, and all of them have a small number of survivors who were 'good guys' in some regard.
To be honest, I've gone from one end to the other. At the very least, there was a flood locally where all the people lived. If a flood got all the people in the world, it was 'global'. The "Black Sea" theory has a good feel to it, but there are some objections to it as well.
I've considered the 'tidal' theory of the flood. One problem is all the water currently in the world would not flood the entire Earth over the tops of the highest mountains. (By the way, that phrase is a bit thought provoking in itself; did Noah take soundings? Did the Lord simply tell the writer to put that part in the story? Did the Lord inspire Noah to include it in the oral tradition handed down to his grandchildren? How did anyone know how high the water got?) The tidal theory is that all the available water moved in a massive tidal wave all around the Earth. That would engulf everything and drown everyone not in a 'boat'.
I'm just not sure, really. I know all the population died (except...) and I know it was a massive water event. But I've sort of given up working out the details. However, I find it unlikely it happened only about 2,000 years prior to the birth of Christ - as according to the Youth Earth believers.
Thanks. I've 'dealt' with the CRI before.
I quite understand. And for what sounds like the same reasons.
Whenever I find a strict young Earth creationist citing agreement from one of those accursed evolutionists, I look into it. For the invention, deception or fraud. Took me about two paragraphs to find it.
There are some reasonable refutations of Dr. Morris, though sometimes it is difficult to find one without a "hateful" agenda.
....the flood was as all consuming and wide as God needed it to be! He took care of business, and how far he had to stretch the waters was urely up to him! After all, he got the job done, and that is all that matters.
Great question, BY THE WAY!!! :thumbsup: