Was the Kingdom postponed???

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ddavis, Dec 27, 2001.

  1. ddavis

    ddavis
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    Something we talked about in Sunday school was the kingdom, was it postponed for the church age or is it the church age? Also if the Jews accepted Christ would they have gone straight into the kingdom age? :confused:
     
  2. donnA

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  3. Chris Temple

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    From http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/kingdom.html

    ******************
    Question: What is the Kingdom of God and when does it come?

    Answer: Reference to "the kingdom of God" (also known as "the kingdom of heaven") appears throughout the Synoptic Gospels — Matthew, Mark, and Luke — and carries largely the same relevance to the disciples of Jesus' time as it does to us, as Second Millennium Christians. The kingdom of God throughout Scripture has an almost dualistic meaning, speaking to both a present reality and a future consummation.

    The present reality of the kingdom is spoken of in Luke 17:20ff: "The kingdom of God is within you." This speaks of a heavenly reality — focusing on a kingdom viewable via faith rather than sight (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:18 and Hebrews 2:8-9). Even Paul speaks of this presently come kingdom, saying that even now we are raised up and seated together with Christ Jesus in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). And the author of Hebrews claims that we, by our faith, are already come to the Holy City and the New Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22).

    By this understanding, the kingdom is already come and its ruler is Christ: the Davidic Messiah who rules over the throne of David forever (cf. Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 28:18, Revelation 19:16, and especially Colossians 1:13). We see the fruit of the kingdom in our lives everyday. Christ's reign in our lives, His power and grace to changes lives, and the dwelling of His people, the church of the firstborn (Hebrews 12:23), as "strangers and pilgrims" (1 Peter 2:11) in this earthly land all speak to the fact and the glory of His arrived kingdom.

    The future consummation for which we hope is that promised return of our King at which point, the heavenly kingdom, once see by faith alone, will thence be seen by sight. In all promised glory, Christ will return and establish forever the visual fulfillment of His heavenly rule. The old heavens and earth shall be done away with and shall be replaced by the Kingdom Eternal, begun at Christ's advent through faith and founded at His return in vision ever glorious!

    These two understandings of the kingdom are both truly taught by the Word of God and coexist in a type of already/not yet reality. They are so interwoven that to refer to them as separately is a misstatement; rather, we ought speak of the two aspects of the kingdom as truly a future kingdom that has penetrated the present.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
    Something we talked about in Sunday school was the kingdom, was it postponed for the church age or is it the church age? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The kingdom is not the church age for a number of reasons. This is what we are discussing in a number of other threads at the moment.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also if the Jews accepted Christ would they have gone straight into the kingdom age? :confused:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes. This is why Christ said "The Kingdom is among you" (Luke 17:21). He was exemplifying all the aspects of the kingdom. What they were experiencing was the kingdom. But they rejected it. It was therefore taken away for that time. That however did not annul God's promises. Since God promised the kingdom, it still must come.
     
  5. PackerBacker

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
    Also if the Jews accepted Christ would they have gone straight into the kingdom age? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


    Yes. This is why Christ said "The Kingdom is among you" (Luke 17:21). He was exemplifying all the aspects of the kingdom. What they were experiencing was the kingdom. But they rejected it. It was therefore taken away for that time. That however did not annul God's promises. Since God promised the kingdom, it still must come.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Pastor Larry,

    I might not understand exactly what you mean, but it seems it is being said that the Jews had a chance to accept Jesus as King of the kingdom, yet they passed it up. If that were true what would have happened if they had chosen the Kingdom and it's King? It seems to me that He would not have gone to the cross and laid down His life for us, if the Jews had accepted Him as King. If the Jews were offered a free-choice opportunity to receive their King and kingdom, it would seem that Jesus death was God's back-up plan, that kicked in gear when man's choice messed up God's first plan.

    Again I'm not sure if this is what you meant by the kingdom. It's just that I have heard it many times that the Jews had a chance to accept the Kingdom but turned it down and that's why God is doing a kind of side road thing with the Gentiles, while the Jews have to await a second chance receive the Kingdom. Now that I find myself seeing God's sovereignty clearer and taking more of a Calvinistic viewpoint, I find it hard to believe that any man or group can thwart God's plans.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PackerBacker:
    If that were true what would have happened if they had chosen the Kingdom and it's King? It seems to me ... it would seem <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I hope you get the point. "It seems" might be okay in some instances but I don't think it is a valid way to contradict revealed Scripture.

    I do not see any contradiction. If they had accepted him, they would have accepted him on the basis of the OT prophecies about his person. Those OT prophecies revealed both his death and resurrection as well as his kingship. In other words, they would have accepted it all, the death and resurrection would have still happened, and the kingdom would have been immediately establihsed afterwards. The disciples still thought that was a possibility (Acts 1:5). There is absolutely nothing but "it seems" that argues your side.


    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now that I find myself seeing God's sovereignty clearer and taking more of a Calvinistic viewpoint, I find it hard to believe that any man or group can thwart God's plans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You won't find a stronger Calvinist and sovereigntist here than I am. I don't believe anyone can thwart God's plans. That is why I think the "what if" game is useless. However, to answer the what if game, we must answer on the basis of theology which is what I have tried to do above.

    If they Jews had ... except the Jews didn't. So it becomes a moot point. What if Adam had never sinned, (would Christ still have come to be crucified since it was ordained before the foundation of the world)? Obviously both situation contain a pure contigency, something unknown to God.

    [ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  7. PackerBacker

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


    You won't find a stronger Calvinist and sovereigntist here than I am. I don't believe anyone can thwart God's plans. That is why I think the "what if" game is useless. However, to answer the what if game, we must answer on the basis of theology which is what I have tried to do above.

    If they Jews had ... except the Jews didn't. So it becomes a moot point. What if Adam had never sinned, (would Christ still have come to be crucified since it was ordained before the foundation of the world)? Obviously both situation contain a pure contigency, something unknown to God.

    [ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Please understand I’m not attempting to contradict scripture by my “what if” question. Your view of God’s sovereignty, election, etc is also not in question, as I have benefited greatly from your posts on those issues. I’ll admit my ignorance on this issue, and offer that as my excuse for asking the “what if” question to gain a better understanding.

    You said something I don’t remember hearing in the past. You said the death, and resurrection would have also happened if the Jews accepted His kingship. Can you go into detail on that? I’ve just always heard it, as Jesus would have ruled as King if they had accepted Him. I’m seriously interested in more details.
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    Many post-mill and a-mill friends say that the Kingdom is today. We are in it, folks. This is as good as it gets.

    Christ IS sovereign - always has been, always will be. But "sovereign of the universe" and "king of his kingdom" seem to be two birds of different feathers.

    Any post-mill here to add scripture to their contention? I tried to find one of their proof texts (Jesus is IN the kingdom NOW) but there are 158 references to kingdom in the NT alone and it is late! :rolleyes:
     
  9. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PackerBacker:
    Your view of God’s sovereignty, election, etc is also not in question, as I have benefited greatly from your posts on those issues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I am sure you weren't. A general misconception about dispensationalists is that they can't be real Calvinists. I was simply commenting on that.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You said the death, and resurrection would have also happened if the Jews accepted His kingship. Can you go into detail on that? I’ve just always heard it, as Jesus would have ruled as King if they had accepted Him. I’m seriously interested in more details.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The death, burial, and resurrection was necessary for atonement. It could be no other way ("consequent absolute necessity" is the theological term). My point was to say that accepting the kingdom would not preclude that. I don't see any "either/or" situation in the OT prophecies and promises. It is a "both/and" situation. To say it as you have said it here, it would imply that 1) the atonement was not necessary; 2) there was another way for atonement; or 3) the offer of the kingdom was not genuine. I disagree with all of those. However, we are dealing somewhat in speculation (however sanctified it might be).
     
  10. HankD

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    The kingdom of heaven is here and now?

    Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Dispensationalist say that the kingdom is here in "mystery" form during this age,

    Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    Can Matthew 13 represent the Kingdom of the Revelation (Chiliad) when Christ shall rule with a "rod of iron"?

    HankD

    [ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  11. Ernie Brazee

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    Thee seems to be to much speculation here. The old testament was a broad picture of the coming messiah, the tabernacle in the wilderness was a picture of Christ's coming sacrifice, nad God as eternal God, knew israel wouldn't accept Christ, as spritual Messiah, they were looking for a physical king. To undersstand all this is simleistic: STUDY THE WORD[B/] NOT DISCUSS IT ON A BOARD WHERE NO ONE EVEN AGREES IF WE HAVE THE WORD OF GOD OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ernie
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ernie Brazee:
    ... the tabernacle in the wilderness was a picture of Christ's coming sacrifice,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Inaccurate, especially for someone who "studies the word." The tabernacle was a picture of the heavenly tabernacle, the dwelling place of God (cf. Heb 8-9).

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To undersstand all this is simleistic: STUDY THE WORD[B/] NOT DISCUSS IT ON A BOARD WHERE NO ONE EVEN AGREES IF WE HAVE THE WORD OF GOD OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Last I checked most of us here agree that we do have the Word of God. However, there are a few among us from time to time who doubt that, but the vast majority of us do believe that we do. Most of us are a little different from you in that we believe that every generation of believers has had it.
     
  13. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    Many post-mill and a-mill friends say that the Kingdom is today. We are in it, folks. This is as good as it gets.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Come, come Dr. Bob. That's a strawman :rolleyes: There's not a single postmil or amil who doesn't believe the eternal kingdom (New Heavens and New Earth) is far superior to the present kingdom.

    [ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
  14. S. Baptist

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
    [/qb]I do not see any contradiction. If they had accepted him, they would have accepted him on the basis of the OT prophecies about his person. Those OT prophecies revealed both his death and resurrection as well as his kingship. In other words, they would have accepted it all, the death and resurrection would have still happened, and the kingdom would have been immediately establihsed afterwards.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    I'll have to disagree if you mean the "physical kingdom" would have been established.

    They would still be in the "Spiritual Kingdom" along with us.

    The Bible doesn't just describe "events", it also includes a "time schedule" for those events to occur.

    As is evident, in Jesus's day, it wasn't "time" for the physical Kingdom, else it would already be here.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
    They would still be in the "Spiritual Kingdom" along with us.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is one of the most misunderstood ideas in Scripture. There is no real "spiritual kingdom" at least not as far as what the Scripture describes. The Kingdom involves six different aspects, only one of which is spiritual.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Bible doesn't just describe "events", it also includes a "time schedule" for those events to occur. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Scripture disagrees with you:

    Mark 13:32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
    Acts 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

    I will go with God on this one. There is no "time schedule" revealed in Scripture.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As is evident, in Jesus's day, it wasn't "time" for the physical Kingdom, else it would already be here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well obviously so but the question is why is this so? The answer is because the Jews rejected Christ as their king.
     

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