was The LAW Given To Isreal, or Also To the Church?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Dec 2, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    Law as in the Old Covenant view of it!
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    The law was before Israel or the church,,,,it is in a believers heart now...it weighs against an unbelievers conscience

    14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
     
  3. JesusFan

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    Except the Bible states that Abraham was BEFORE the Law, that the Law was given to Isreal alone among all the nations of the earth!
     
  4. Aaron

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    All Scripture is given by inspiration and is profitable. Not was profitable, but is profitable.

    All are responsible to it, but it is only given by revelation to the elect.
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    What verse are you speaking about? You do understand the the ten commandments were before Abraham??

    the bible does not contradict itself.
     
  6. convicted1

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    Law Covenant given to the Jews/Israel(twelve tribes of Israel, not the nation of Israel in the middle east). Grace Covenant given to the believer, both Jew and Gentile(the Church).
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    Willis, Jews given the covenant of grace also....under an ot administration.


     
  8. agedman

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    What makes you think that the Jews in the middle east are not descendents of Abraham's Issac?
     
  9. convicted1

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    Well, Noah found grace in God's sight, so grace has everly been with God. But the Grace Covenant, was ushered in by Jesus' works of the cross. Now the Jews and Gentiles, who are saved, are now the Church, which get the promise of Abraham.....the Church is part of the promise of Abraham's seed.
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    Willis......they also had the gospel preached unto them ....but they looked forward to the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham...we look back because Jesus as you say ushers it in.

    [QUOTE 67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

    68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

    69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

    70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

    71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

    75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

    76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

    77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

    78Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

    79To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
    ][/QUOTE]

    it is all of grace...only one way of salvation throughout time.:thumbs:
     
  11. convicted1

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    Under the Law Covenant, it was for the Jews. Sure, there were a few Gentiles sprinkled along(Rahab and Ruth come to mind), that were taken in. But, by and large, the Law Covenant was for the Jews.


    The Law Covenant had it's shortcomings, where the verse states that if the first(Law Covenant) had been faultless, there would have been no need for the second(Grace Covenant). Man could not gain righteousness through the Law. Righteousness comes through the Grace Covenant. Biblical support?

    Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


    Hebrew 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


    Now the we are under the Grace Covenant, there is neither Jew nor Greek(Gentile), male nor female.

    Galatians 3:23-29
    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Both Jew AND Greek(Gentile) are on the same playing field now, Grace through faith.

    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
     
  12. convicted1

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    The Gospel was preached to them is correct. But this was telling them that it was to come in the future. All they had at that time was the Law Covenant. They were under it until Jesus accomplished the will of the Father concerning the cross. Now, those who died in faith, the blood(which is what the Grace Covenant is all about) went back and washed them, as they died before Jesus came to die for them.


    This passage here that I put under "quotes" is concerning John the Baptist, which I am sure you already know. He came to make a people ready for Christ by the baptism unto repentence. He came to fulfill the prophecy of him in Malachi chapter 3.



    Correct, it's all Grace. But the Grace Covenant did not take full effect until He died, was buried, arose, and ascended back to the Father.


    Hebrews 9:11-17
    11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


    So you see Brother, the Grace Covenant did not take effect until Jesus died. Before He died, they were under the Law, making the four Gospels roughly 90% Law Covenant(meaning the lived under the Law while Jesus was alive here on earth).

    PS Those BIG BLACK WORDS were for emphasis only, and not me flamimg or yelling.
     
  13. Aaron

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    What you're calling the "Grace" covenant was made with Abraham. The Law was "added" 400+ years later because of transgressions. The Church is not part of the Promise, it is the whole fulfillment of the Promise. You should have cited the verses in Gal. 3 directly above the verses in that chapter you did cite.
     
  14. Aaron

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    P.S.

    Concerning your question from another thread about what corrupted Adam, the Schoolmaster spells out for us in its ceremonial sections.
     
  15. freeatlast

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    When you say law you take in more then just the commandments. The law was given through Moses to govern God's covenant people the Jew under a theocracy and only applies to the Jewish nation.

    The commandments or moral code, minus the Sabbath law, remains for today for the believer and are repeated in the NT. While we are free from the ceremonies and rituals we are bound to obey the commandments. John ,makes that clear as does Paul in many of his letters. We are not saved by obedience to the commandments but once saved we are expected to obey them and we will or the scripture says we are not saved.
     
  16. JesusFan

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    The Church Was NOT though in the Old Covenant, as that was the relationship between isreal and their God...

    We are NOT under the OT Law, as that was what established the relationship between God and His people, but was inferior in nature, as was only a shadow/type of the messiah to come...

    Jesus kept the law totally/perfectly for us, and that allows God to justify us, as the law could justify NO ONE..

    new Covenant superior to Old one that has passed away, so now we are saved by grace, have the HS in us, and he will allow us to obey God and keep the commandments, as wriiten in our hearts by Him...

    say again, we are no longer under/bound by LAw, but are under Grace, and to do "law of Christ"
     
  17. freeatlast

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    That is your belief, but Here is God's belief.
    1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    And for those who do not believe God will hear;
    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
  18. JesusFan

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    You can quote the words, and yet still miss what their actual meanings are....
     
  19. agedman

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    I see a problem with the presentation that the believer is to keep that which was complete in Christ.

    The believer doesn't keep nor is responsible to keep the law, and the law doesn't keep the believer.

    Scriptures teach that the law is a school master that "brings us" to Christ. Once "in Christ" who fulfilled all the law, what further need have we of the school master?

    Of course, the believer doesn't keep the ceremonial commands - they were pictures of the "real thing." Why look at a picture of a "sody water" when you have the actual Dr. Pepper to enjoy? :)

    When ask, Jesus indicated two commands - Love God and love neighbor.

    We are to keep those two. For societal peace we keep some of the others some of the time. For even John admitted that we do occasionally sin.

    The believer doesn't commit adultery or steal because it is against the law, rather to do so destroys the neighborly love.

    The believer honors their mother and father not because the law demands it, but because of the love of God flowing from the heart obliges elders to be esteemed.

    We "do what is right and Godly" not because there is a law, but because there is love.

    Part of what I think the covenant folks hold is that the law provides a social structure so believers and non believers can work and live together.

    So, it may be the Scriptural laws are some benefit to the civil order, but should not be imprinted upon the believer as a must do in order to keep one "right with God."
     
  20. freeatlast

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    You remind me of date rape. Two people alone and she says stop and he thinks she means full steam ahead, date rape. That is how you approach the bible. For you it seldom means what it says, date rape.
     

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