was the SDA "prophetess" Right regarding Investigative Judgment ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, May 2, 2013.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    1. Christ moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary on October 22, 1844, and began a new phase of ministry. This ministry was foreshadowed by the Levitical Day of Atonement (Lev. 16:16-33).

    2. The first phase of the "Day of Atonement" is called the "cleansing of the Sanctuary." It involves a pre-Advent investigation and judging of God's people to determine whose sins will be removed from the Sanctuary. Christ started this judgment in 1844, beginning with Adam and Eve and progressing chronologically down through the ages, judging all of the dead believers. At some point, near the end of time, Christ will begin judging living believers. During this Investigative Judgment God either blots out the sins of the believer, or he removes the name of the believer from the Book of Life.

    As during the typical Day of Atonement the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary removed the sins accumulated there, so the heavenly sanctuary is cleansed by the final removal of the record of sins in the heavenly books. But before the records are finally cleared, they will be examined to determine who through repentance and faith in Christ is entitled to enter His eternal kingdom. The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, therefore involves a work of investigation or judgment that reflects the nature of the Day of Atonement as a day of judgment. This judgment, which ratifies the decision as to who will be saved and who will be lost...1
    3. Whenever one of God's followers commits a sin and asks foregiveness from God, that sin is transferred into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly Sanctuary. It remains there, in the Sanctuary, until the Investigative Judgment is completed. At the end of time, all the sins of the righteous are transferred from the Sanctuary onto the Scapegoat, who is Satan. Satan then suffers the final punishment for his sins and all the sins of the righteous.
    www.nonsda.org/study4.shtml

    Did ellen white get divine revealtion from heaven, or from hell?

    Note that a christian has NO assurance of real salvation, as God will doa final act of judging their works, and if not keeping the Sabbath holy, keeping law euc, thetcan lose salvation

    Also that satan bears the sins of sinners?

    HOW in gods name is that a revealtion from god, for jesus is our Sin bearer?
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    "The Bible says" -

    Dan 7

    9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
    10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
    11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
    12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
    13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    14 And there was given him dominion, and glory,
    and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
    15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
    16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
    17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
    18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
    19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
    20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
    21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
    22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High
    ; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


    =================

    The bible teaches that God the Father goes into the Judgment and THEN the Son of Man - comes "to the ancient of days" to begin that judgment -

    A judgment that results in the saints being delivered.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

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    In Dan 8 - PARALLEL to Dan 7 -- "The Bible says"

    that the judgment event of Dan 7 is to be called the "Cleansing of the Sanctuary" with the same little horn problem exposed in both chapters - and the same solution in both chapters.

    Dan 8

    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
    10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
    11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
    12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
    13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
    14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


    The cleansing of the sanctuary takes place on the Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" - and is considered even by the Jews themselves to be the Great day of Judgment.

    The Judgment of Dan 7 is therefore the SAME solution that we find in Dan 8.

    And as Paul points out in 2Cor 5:10
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Romans 6:23

    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    1 Peter 4:17
    17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

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    In Daniel 7, 8, 9 we have the day year model. So in Dan 9 the 490 years (70 weeks) goes from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (after the Babylonian captivity was to end) until the time of "Messiah the Prince".

    In Dan 8 the 2300 days - are 2300 years according to Dan 8:13-14 that span the period of time described by the vision in Dan 8:1-11. Daniel 8 is the only chapter in the Bible that has this number. Daniel 9 refers back to it as "the vision" that was previously given and that needed more detail explanation. At the end of Dan 8 the prophet Daniel is confused and asks for more detailed explanation.

    The question asked in Dan 8:13 "how long is the vision" which is a reference to the vision recorded in vs 1-11. It spans 2300 years starting with events during the Persian empire.

    Dan 8:20-21.

    Daniel 9 points out the fact that the first 490 years of that 2300 year prophecy begin with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem - after the Babylonian captivity - and extends to the coming of the Messiah "the anointed one".
     
  5. Thomas Helwys

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    To answer your original question: No. This was concocted after the previous prophecies had failed, as a way to save the Adventist movement, and to save face.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    The Bible "was not concocted after the previous prophecies had failed" -

    The Bible says -

    In Daniel 7, 8, 9 we have the day year model. So in Dan 9 the 490 years (70 weeks) goes from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (after the Babylonian captivity was to end) until the time of "Messiah the Prince".

    In Dan 8 the 2300 days - are 2300 years according to Dan 8:13-14 that span the period of time described by the vision in Dan 8:1-11. Daniel 8 is the only chapter in the Bible that has this number. Daniel 9 refers back to it as "the vision" that was previously given and that needed more detail explanation. At the end of Dan 8 the prophet Daniel is confused and asks for more detailed explanation.

    The question asked in Dan 8:13 "how long is the vision" which is a reference to the vision recorded in vs 1-11. It spans 2300 years starting with events during the Persian empire.

    Dan 8:20-21.

    Daniel 9 points out the fact that the first 490 years of that 2300 year prophecy begin with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem - after the Babylonian captivity - and extends to the coming of the Messiah "the anointed one".
     
  7. Thomas Helwys

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    Not talking about the Bible. I'm talking about the theory of investigative judgment.

    Bob, you seem to be a nice guy, unlike a couple of people on this forum, so I want you to know now that anything I discuss with you is about doctrine, not about you personally.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    That is fine - and thank you for the kind remark

    in my post - I am just talking about the Bible as it relates to the Bible position on the 2300 day/year prophecy of Daniel 8 and how it relates to Daniel 7.

     
  9. steaver

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    It puzzles me why any Spirit filled child of God would embrace such nonsense and try to use prophetic scripture to somehow support a false teacher, whom btw, the scripture gave us plenty of warning how false teachers would creep into the church.

    It's not from God, and satan sure isn't my sin bearer, ONLY Jesus Christ gets that honour, and tis why I worship Him, not Satan.
     
  10. steaver

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    This is just twisted, it is pure antichrist heresy. Very sad :tear:
     
  11. BobRyan

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    In the Lev 16 day of atonement the "Bible says" that the "Lord's goat" is called the "sin offering". It is slain for the sins of the people and its blood makes atonement.

    "The Bible says" -

    Christ is both the "Lamb of God" (John 1) and also the "High Priest" Heb 7 and 8 in the Lev 16 model of Atonement.

    Christ is not the scape goat - which in Lev 16 is never called a "sin offering" and is not slain in the Lev 16 model of atonement that God gives. So no substitutionary atoning death is provided by the scape goat (Satan and all the wicked).

    When the storm of ranting is over - just the facts please.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. steaver

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    You still haven't provided a "fact" from scripture which declares satan is the scape goat. Do you have anything at all to offer for this besides EGW?
     
  13. preacher4truth

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    It's startling how this woman influenced by satan has deceived so many with her false prophecies, yet many still follow her teachings. She has made many false prophecies that have failed the test of time. Therefore, on the basis of Scripture, she is not a true prophet of God.

    Consider also 'The Clear Word Bible' among SDA's which mix EGW's statements into the text of Scripture. Why is this called 'The Clear Word Bible' when it's been muddied with a false prophetess' words within the actual text? This shows that SDA's accept the false teachings of EGW on the same level as Scripture. As we know Mormonism does the same thing, making it, as well as SDAism another gospel as per Galatians 1:6-10.

    But no matter what one says and shows, they'll deceive themselves somehow into justifying this. It goes the same with her many false prophecies that have utterly failed. And no, I am not going to go back and forth on that.

    BobRyan, you seem like a 'nice' person. However, 'nice' doesn't really mean anything in eternity. It doesn't mean anything here either, 2 Cor. 11:12ff. Nothing about us, our niceness, or anything adds to or gives us advantage in salvation, only Christ and His work alone does this.

    Frankly, you've been deceived by SDA teachings and the evil spirit who overtook Ellen White just as she herself was deceived. She's a false prophet, she is very deceptive. The OP is spot on. Your proof texting doesn't prove EGW correct, you're simply attempting to support her teachings with Scripture in a twisted manner, when her teachings should have come from Scripture in the first place, yet now people are scrambling to justify her teaching and find a proof text to support it. Yet her teachings didn't come from Scripture, they came from false misleading revelations (from an 'angel from heaven' --messenger-- something Paul warned of in Galatians above) and at the same time I somewhat doubt she actually had visions in the first place, but uses this to 'validate' and add 'weight' to what she says. Now, if she did in fact have visions, they simply were not from Jehovah God.

    Nothing in what you've used proves the false premise of Investigative Judgment. Satan isn't the scapegoat, Christ paid for all sins in His blood. 'It is finished'. Period. We are justified forever at salvation once and for all. But not according to SDA, they put the brakes on this, though typically they deny this in statement, yet their actual teachings reject this truth.

    Thus who to believe? Scripture, God, or the SDA and EGW? I'll stick with the former and reject the latter.

    Therefore all else from EGW is a false gospel, which really isn't good news in the first place. It's actually sad news because salvation becomes dependent upon man, and then man is placed under the curse of the Law to fulfill it, being watched by the 'Recording Angel'. No man can ever do enough to please God, which is the curse that SDAism places man under when entering said religion.

    There is so much more error in SDA/EGW teachings that could be covered.

    Only God can open eyes to the truth to make one see the errors of this religion.
     
    #13 preacher4truth, May 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2013
  14. Revmitchell

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    Ellen White, Joseph Smith, Charles Russel Taze some of the biggest shysters in history.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Did I quote Ellen White in my post on the subject of the Lev 16 scapegoat?

    Maybe I must have missed it.

    Please point to the part where I was not referencing the Bible evidence for the fact that the scape goat is not the sin offering of Lev 16 - but Christ IS the sin offering in Lev 16 and also the High Priest in that model according to Hebrews 7 and 8.

    Just the facts please.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Here again - "Details" are important. Let's list a few that we find in wikipedia.

    An individual - "Jack Blanco" - wrote a "devotional".



    A "Devotional" that has no official endorsement by the denomination because the denomination is not the practice of placing a denomination-level approval or not - when an individual "writes a devotional".

    It is entirely possible that in the Baptist church - there is some sort of denominational level impramature placed on individual devotionals that are published so that the laity will know what is "approved" by the Baptist denomination - and so this may be the source of the apparent confusion on that point in your comment above about Seventh-day Adventists - but it is not the way this particular denomination works.


    You are welcomed to your views. SDAs are strong believers in free will and you certainly have the free will to make whatever statements you wish to make.

    I personally choose to take less interest in name-calling solutions and more interest in sola-scriptura Bible testing of a given doctrine.

    I am funny that way.

    To each his own. Free will is available to all.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. steaver

    steaver
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    Clear facts concerning the two goats of Leviticus 16 as revealed through Scripture;

    "And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. (Lev 16:7)

    Both goats represent the atonement before the Lord. The first goat representing Christ's death for our sins, the second goat representing Christ's bearing away the sins of the world.

    "And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness". (Lev 16:21-22)

    "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Is 53:6)

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Is 53:11)

    "Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." (Is 53:12)

    "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29)

    "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Heb 9:28)

    "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." (1Pt2:24)

    Six scriptural references defining the scapegoat as Christ bearing the iniquities of the world, taking away sins, even as Christ ultimately dies for those sins.

    Not one reference to be found in all of scripture relating the scapegoat to Satan. This would be blasphemy! Teaching Satan has any part in the atonement reserved and performed by Christ alone.

    EGW is a failure BobRyan, you present yourself as a knowledgeable man and spend much time in the study of scripture, why would you accept such an antichrist statement concerning the atonement of Christ? You really need to step back and take a serious look at what you have devoted your life to. Pray you consider.....
     
  18. saturneptune

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    Exactly right. Just more evidence of their overall warped theology. Another magic act. I am beginning to wonder if this group is not worse than the Mormons and JWs.
     
  19. steaver

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    Fact #1; You quoted Leviticus 16 as support for EGW's statement presented in the OP that the scapegoat is Satan.

    Fact#2; You declared the scapegoat is "not the sin offering of Lev 16", BUT, you did not present any scriptural evidence showing the scapegoat is Satan.

    Fact#3; I did present scriptural evidence the scapegoat is representing Christ in post #17.

    The ball is in your court, you can protest my presentation and show why I am wrong, and you can present your own evidence showing the scapegoat is Satan. I will await your response.
     
  20. saturneptune

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    You are correct. The scapegoat is Christ. He made the sacrifice for our sins.
     

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