Was wine in Jesus' day alcoholic?

NO just fermented and rotten women.

 

Um, what?

And can you describe at what point "grape juice" becomes "wine"?

And what of non-passover times?

And what of the last half of Romans 14?

 

When the first molecule of alcohol is produced.

HankD

 

Ps104_33 said:

What do those who had an alcolhol addiction before coming to Christ do when the communion cup comes around?

I have no problem with the use of grape juice instead of wine. That is the practice at my church and most churches I have attended.

Nor would I have a problem with any alcoholic accepting the bread and passing over the wine, if necessary. If his heart is sincere and he has partaken as far as he believes he is able, that is enough for me. (I Am Not A Pastor.)

 

To say that Jesus drank alcoholic wine, is to say that Jesus sinned!

Uhhh, when last I checked, consumption of alcohon was not a sin, only drunkenness was a sin.

Otherwise, we might as well ban the Christian use of Nyquil.

 

Then marijuana and opium must be acceptable to consume because they are natural.

Hasn't it occurred that shabat wine has been used by the Jews since the time of Moses? Jesus would have consumed wine at every sabbath meal and every passover meal. In fact, did he not share the passover wine with his desciples at the last supper? It certainly wasn't grape juice, because that wasn't the custom. And don't tell me he didn't consume wine with his friends at the last summer. If that were so, I think the gospel writers would have made it a piont to record that fact in their writings, because it would have been a significant break from tradition.

 

Originally posted by RomOne16:

That was just the sort of information I was looking for. It was very interesting and informative.

I was prompted to do a little further research on this subject after reading that article. It mentions, for example, that "new wine" (Heb. tirosh is also intoxicating: "Harlotry, wine [yayin] and new wine [tirosh] take away the understanding" (Hos. 4:11)

Even more interesting is the judgment pronounced on Israel by God in Micah 6:

It seems that Biblically speaking, the abundance of "new wine" but the lack of wine is a curse, not a blessing.

FWIW, Hos. 4:11 and Mic. 6:15 are the only two verses in the Bible where the two words tirosh and yayin appear together, but it is also possible that they occur together and are contrasted elsewhere, only less close.

[ September 09, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

This is really bad logic because in addition to the natural substances already mentioned, the seeds of certain flower plants contain lysergic acid amide (LSA) which is the natural form of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD).
Certain kinds of mushrooms contain psylocin (another halucinogen).
Certain kinds of cactus plants contain mescaline (yet another psychotropic substance) in the pears and juice.
Certain grains contain a substance called ergot also related to LSD.
These and other toxic plants which occur in nature grow right in your back yard and have been used for millenia by shamans to "get high" and connect with the gods.

According to Dr Monroe's logic, these substances would be OK to use since God made them just the way they are.

HankD

[ September 09, 2002, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Hi Brian. Thank you for your courteous reply. I’m glad that we have found agreement on at least some of this issue. It is a big topic and I’m thankful that the Bible provides the real answers for all of us.

That is why I thank GOD for the opportunity to continually turn to the Bible to try and find the answers (just like the Bereran’s of Acts 17 did) to ALL of life’s questions. That is precisely why GOD gave us the inerrant Bible – so that we can search for truth.

Thank you again for your terrific thoughts BrianT. It is very much appreciated.

latterrain77

 

Hi ChristianCynic. Thank you for your comments. No, I’m not saying that modern medicines trump the Bible. Actually, modern medicines are a product of the growing knowledge that the Bible proclaimed mankind could expect (Daniel 12: 14). Jesus approved of this method too (Matt. 9: 12).

I don’t understand your second question/point. However, I’m confident that the verse does not promote the idea that “alcoholic drinking” is related to pastoral hospitality of visitors and guests. Besides, pastoral hospitality also includes tending to the sick. While a little wine would be acceptable in this circumstance, it is no longer necessary due to modern medicines.

Thank you again CC. I appreciate your comments.

latterrain77

[ September 10, 2002, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

Yes, the wine in the NT is "real" wine. Yes, Jesus drank wine. In fact, His first miracle was turning water into wine at a wedding in Cana.

Wine was used in communion services until Americans began thinking that alcohol is evil. Mr. Welch was a Methodist and established "Welch's Grape Juice" so that people would stop using wine in communion and use grape juice instead. For all of you Southern Baptists - the 1925 Baptist Faith & Message states that the elements of the Lord's Supper are bread and WINE.

When Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper He was celebrating Passover with His disciples - and they were drinking wine. So, the Lord's Supper was instituted with WINE, not grape juice.

Rev. G

 

A couple of points:

1. Alcohol is certainly found in nature! Some berries and fruits will ferment naturally on the tree/bush/vine. Pyracantha berries come to mind immediately, as the birds get drunk on them every autumn! We used to have to pull dead birds out of the horse trough because the would try to take a drink, lose their balance, fall over, and drown! These drunk birds also get hit by cars around here at that time of year -- they lose their sense of distance or something. Some of it is really funny. Some is really sad.

2. When alcohol can be used in place of a "modern medicine" it is generally much safer. The medications we have today have so many side effects that it is the considered advice of many health professionals to take as little as possible as rarely as possible.

3. And yes, wine in Jesus' day had to be alcoholic -- or Jesus would not have used that picture in terms of new wine bursting old wineskins. The reason they would burst is that they could no longer expand during the fermentation process!

[ September 23, 2002, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

Hi G. Thank you for your comments about “wine.” The examples you provided do not say that the LORD drank wine. In John 2, it says Jesus turned water into wine but it does not say anywhere that he drank that wine. If you think I'm wrong, please tell me where it says in John 2 that the LORD drank wine.

In addition, the “Last Supper” example you provided does not say that the LORD drank wine either. The phrase used is “fruit of the vine” (Matt. 26: 29 and Mark 14: 25) NOT wine. The Greek word used here (gennema) "fruit" is entirely different than the word (oinos) "wine." The LORD did NOT drink wine. Thank you G. I appreciate your thoughts.

latterrain77

 

Actually the complete phrase is "gennamatos tas ampelou".

I believe the forest can't be seen because the trees are getting in the way.

Gennama: Friberg 01132 gennama( atos) (to), what is produced or born; of man offspring, child.
Any product or work.

Ampelos: Grapevine.

It was the "product of the grapevine" and he drank it (whatever it was).

HankD

 

Hi HankD. Thank you for your comments. Whether it’s the singular word fruit (“gennema”) or the entire phrase that you suggested - they both illustrate the same thing – that the LORD did NOT drink wine at the Last Supper.

The word used in the “Last Supper” text is NOT “oinos” (wine). If the LORD wanted to teach us that he drank “wine” at the Last Supper, then the word used would have been wine (“oinos”) as that word is used repeatedly throughout the New Testament as meaning just that - wine. But the word used in the "Last Supper" text is NOT wine ("oinos"). It is "gennema" which means FRUIT. Jesus did NOT drink wine at the “Last Supper” (or at any other time either). Thanks HankD.

latterrain77

[ September 25, 2002, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

Hi Laterrain,

I will repeat what I posted…

"It was the "product of the grapevine" and he drank it (whatever it was)."

Please note that the word "wine" does not appear in this statement

In fact it doesn't appear anywhere in my post. I purposely left it that way to let the reader decide what it is that Jesus drank with the apostles at the Passover dinner (Seder).

An anonymous rabbi once said "He who searches for the gnat will surely find it".

By the way the Scripture doesn't anywhere say that Jesus drank water either.

HankD

[ September 25, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

I know I'm late getting in on this conversation, but I just received my login privilege.

Have you considered that there is no specific mention of any other thing commonly used or done by the people of Jesus' time? That is, there is no mention of common clothing, no mention of common foods, no mention of common beverages, no mention of waste disposal, and little or no mention of common transportation or entertainment except where it is integral with the setting of the story.

To conclude that Jesus did not drink wine because it is not specifically stated he did so, is pure speculation, because wine was then, as it is now, a common beverage throughout most of the world including Israel. Having spent some time in the Mediterranean region I can tell you that wine is consumed as commonly as water. It's not a big deal for the whole family to gather around the supper table, kids and adults alike, enjoying fermented wine with their meal.