Was WW2 based on deceit & lies?

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by LadyEagle, Feb 2, 2007.

  1. LadyEagle

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    In the politics forum, it was stated,


    Someone said an effective argument could be made against that statement.

    I started this thread so those who want to make their effective arguments against that statement could give it their best shot.

    Go for it....
     
  2. Salty

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    There are those who say that FDR did know about the impending attack on Pearl Harbor. If so, and he did nothing....

    Sarge Salty
     
  3. saturneptune

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    I have read that before, but not sure if it is true. As said in the other forum, look at Iraq now and the leadership we have running it. Now, imagine WW2 with Bush and Cheney guiding us to victory. Imagine what it would be like in 2007.
     
  4. El_Guero

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    Imagine that. OK.

    An enemy attacks the USA unprovoked and kills thousands of unsuspecting and the country rallies behind the military, the peace faction that was against the war become leaders in the war against the enemy, millions join up, gasoline and food is rationed so that we can show our support of the troops, we go around the world and everywhere that we can find them - we attack until done, even developing nuclear weapons if necessary.

    WOW! I just hope we don't need the enemy to attack again for 2007 to become like 1943.

    Then our soldiers that died against an evil empire were told that they were fighting against evil . . . now they are told that our way of life is evil.

    That is scary.


     
  5. El_Guero

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    LE

    Disinformation (Lies and propoganda) have always been used. It is called IW (Information Warfare).

    :thumbs:
     
  6. saturneptune

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    Granted, compared to then good and evil have no distinct line. We are in sad shape in that regard. But equally sad is the quality of leadership compared to then.
     
  7. KenH

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    I have studied this subject in the past and reached the conclusion that our entry into World War II was legitimate and not based on deceit and lies.
     
  8. Terry_Herrington

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    Where's Carpro at?

    He's the one who opened his mouth. :laugh:
     
  9. faithgirl46

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    :confused: Are you saying that the bombing of Pearl Harbor was fabricated? I don't understand what you mean.
    Faithgirl
     
  10. carpro

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    http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...evelt+provoked+wwII&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=23&gl=us


    BY ROBERT HIGGS

    How U.S.Economic Warfare
    Provoked Japan’s Attack on Pearl Harbor



    Ask a typical American how the United States got
    into World War II, and he will almost certainly
    tell you that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor
    and the Americans fought back.Ask him why the Japan-
    ese attacked Pearl Harbor, and he will probably need
    some time to gather his thoughts. He might say that the
    Japanese were aggressive militarists who wanted to take
    over the world, or at least the Asia-Pacific part of it.Ask
    him what the United States
    did to provoke the Japanese,
    and he will probably say that
    the Americans did nothing:we
    were just minding our own
    business when the crazy Japan-
    ese,completely without justifi-
    cation,mounted a sneak attack
    on us, catching us totally by
    surprise in Hawaii on Decem-
    ber 7, 1941.
     
  11. KenH

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    A typical blame America first smear.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    Back 20 or 30 years ago I was studying the
    "Russo-Japaneese War" of 1905.
    The war started with the Japaneese destroying
    the Russian Pacific fleet in harbor at Port
    Port Arthur the day the war was declared
    (the ships had to leave port several days
    before). The US Military observers and
    comentaters praised the Japaneese as the
    peace makers were failing - war was
    just around the corner.
    The Russian Baltic fleet when all the way around
    Euro-Asia taking months to
    arrive. They were destroyed by
    the Japanees fleet and the war ended.

    After the attack on Pearl Harbor, the
    "Russo-Japaneese War" of 1905 was
    revisited - the Japaneese always attack
    before the war starts.

    Google Map Port Arthur, China. It is a classy
    Red Chineese naval port with ships building.
    Neat 4-lane Divided/Limited access highway there also.
     
    #12 Ed Edwards, Feb 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2007
  13. kubel

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    Some believe that there was foreknowledge of the attack by people high up within the US and/or British governments, and that they did nothing so as to allow the attack to go forth, and therefore, get the peoples backing to go to war. Another theory claims that the British had the ability to break the Japanese naval code, but withheld this prior to the Pearl Harbor attacks so the US would get involved in the war, and thus lend a hand to the British fighting Hitler.
     
  14. carpro

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    Sometimes you crack me up. :laugh:
     
  15. carpro

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    http://www.independent.org/publications/the_lighthouse/detail.asp?id=52


    12/7/41 -- A Date That Will Live in Infamy

    December 7th marks the anniversary of the Japanese military attack on Pearl Harbor, "a date that will live in infamy," as President Franklin Delano Roosevelt put it.

    But there is more than one reason why that date should never be forgotten.

    The official story is that Japanese warships, en route to the Hawaiian Islands, retained radio silence, while Japanese decoy radio signals were sent to deceive the U.S. military into believing that the ships were still berthed in Japan. According to Independent Institute Media Fellow Robert B. Stinnett, however, neither of these claims is true.

    U.S. military intelligence was not fooled by the decoy signals, and the Japanese warships broke radio silence. No less an authority than Commander Joseph J. Rochefort, former commander of the Pacific Fleet radio intelligence center, explained that in his oral history conducted by the U.S. Naval Institute. Furthermore, Stinnett even reproduces an eight-point action plan, written in 1940 by Lieutenant Commander Arthur H. McCollum, spelling out how best to provoke the Land of the Rising Sun:


    "It is not believed that in the present state of political opinion the United States Government is capable of declaring war against Japan without more ado," wrote McCollum, who concluded his proposed eight steps with the following sentence: "If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war, so much the better."
     
  16. carpro

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    The McCollum Memo

    Lieutenant Commander Arthur H. McCollum, head of the Far East desk of the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI), was one of the nation's top experts on Japan. He prepared a memo for two of Roosevelt's most trusted military advisors which outlined an eight-step plan for provoking war with Japan. The memo read:

    A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore.

    B. Make an arrangement with Holland for use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies [now Indonesia].

    C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang Kai-shek.

    D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore.

    E. Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient.

    F. Keep the main strength of the US Fleet, now in the Pacific, in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands.

    G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, particularly oil.

    H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire.26


    All eight steps were taken.
     
  17. carpro

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    http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2001/06-04-2001/vo17no12_facts.htm

    Pearl Harbor: The Facts Behind the Fiction
    by James Perloff

    EXCERPT

    Although FDR desired to directly involve the United States in the Second World War, his intentions sharply contradicted his public pronouncements. A pre-war Gallup poll showed 88 percent of Americans opposed U.S. involvement in the European war. Citizens realized that U.S. participation in World War I had not made a better world, and in a 1940 (election-year) speech, Roosevelt typically stated: "I have said this before, but I shall say it again and again and again: Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars."

    But privately, the president planned the opposite. Roosevelt dispatched his closest advisor, Harry Hopkins, to meet British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in January 1941. Hopkins told Churchill: "The President is determined that we [the United States and England] shall win the war together. Make no mistake about it. He has sent me here to tell you that at all costs and by all means he will carry you through, no matter what happens to him � there is nothing he will not do so far as he has human power." William Stevenson noted in A Man Called Intrepid that American-British military staff talks began that same month under "utmost secrecy," which, he clarified, "meant preventing disclosure to the American public." Even Robert Sherwood, the president�s friendly biographer, said: "If the isolationists had known the full extent of the secret alliance between the United States and Britain, their demands for impeachment would have rumbled like thunder throughout the land."
     
  18. El_Guero

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    Carpro

    I hate to say it, but hindsight being 20/20, WWII was a necessary war. Even if politicians were in collusion.
     
  19. carpro

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    I know.

    I'm just playing the role of the devil's advocate. Those that insist on Bush being an evil liar need to remember that few situations are as cut and dried as we'd like.

    There is little historical doubt that FDR wanted to enter the war to assist Great Britain, but faced a reluctant nation. A great deal of what I posted is historical fact. If similar info was presented concerning Bush, there is no doubt the same ones who think FDR's motives were pure as driven snow will believe every evil rumor they hear about Bush.

    Plus I said that a convincing case could be made that FDR provoked the Japanese, and I have backed up that statement. I know there are many who will not wish to ascribe such motives to FDR, but won't hesitate to ascribe such motives to Bush on even flimsier evidence.
     
    #19 carpro, Feb 4, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2007
  20. El_Guero

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    Great comparison.

    If we do not fight them and win, they will win.

    They are determined to destroy our way of life and kill anyone and everyone that does not bow down to their evil idols.

    God bless

    Wayne


     

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