Wasn't Christ's Atoning Work Enough?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Aug 12, 2008.

  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Why is Lordship’s “salvation (only) for those who are willing to forsake everything?” Why must the lost come to Christ for salvation with a whole-hearted commitment to deny-self, bear the cross and follow Christ to death if necessary?

    Is God not satisfied with the finished work of Jesus Christ? Is God not satisfied with His Son’s propitiation for the sins of the whole world? Is God is not satisfied with Christ’s atoning work?

    Of course God is satisfied. So, why does LS add what man must bring to God for salvation when Jesus paid it all?

    Lordship Salvation is a corruption of “the simplicity that is in Christ.” Lordship Salvation is a man-centered, non-saving message that is antithetical to the biblical plan of salvation. Lordship Salvation frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21).
    Lordship Salvation is an assault on the gospel. The doctrine of Lordship Salvation and the efforts of Lordship advocacy must be vigorously debated, and biblically resisted. May God protect unsuspecting believers and the lost from the egregious errors of Lordship Salvation.


    LM
     
  2. ReformedBaptist

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    Yes, of course Christ's atonement made a full and complete satisfaction. Why then do you teach a gospel that can be resisted and a salvation that can fail? I didn't take you for a Calvinist Lou. Perhaps I am wrong?

    The only one who has added anything to anything, Lou, is you adding to a man of God's teaching what he is not teaching. You have done this to me as well by accusing me of dodging your questions when I have answered them directly.

    What is corrupted is teaching the Gospel in manner other than Jesus and His Apostles. This, both you and the other non-lorship advocates, have failed over and over again to show that either JM or those whom you deem LS apologists have done.

    I agree with your prayer. May the Lord Jesus indeed protect His people from error. I am so grateful to God that He has preserved His Word throughout time and brought it to us so that we can examine the teaching of men, you and JM both, in light of it.

    RB
     
  3. ReformedBaptist

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    I am not going to let this one pass on unanswered. Are you teaching that JM is not saved? Are you also by implication telling the BB that those who agree with JM's explaination of salvation are not saved?

    You have considered me an LS apologist. Are you saying I am not saved?
     
  4. Rippon

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    Ok,let's spell "H-O-B-B-Y-H-O-R-S-E" !

    You certainly do a lot of yakking Lou.I bet you used to drive your mom crazy with your incessant talking.

    Are you under the impression that folks who are saved under the ministry of the Gospel by the Lord's servant,John MacArthur,are not really saved after all?The message of JM is false according to you.So people who are saved under its power (God's power is the power of salvation)can not really be regenerate per your view.Is that correct?
     
  5. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    RB:

    IMO, you are letting your personal affinity for MacArthur get in the way again, even without ever having read any of his major LS books. You should try to rein in your emotions, at least take a cooling off period before you react to any legitimate criticism of MacArthur's Lordship interpretation of the Gospel.

    Anyway, you asked if I consider MacArthur unsaved? Ironically, I just addressed that question yesterday at my blog. You'll have to do the reading. Go to Lordship's "Turn From Sin" For Salvation.

    See my comment on 8/11/08 @ 10:44pm.


    LM

    "Hobby-Horse?" Among MacArthur's five his major books on Lordship Salvation, one has been released three times. Not to mention the many, many articles and sermons in print.
     
  6. Rippon

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    Although you finally said that MacArthur is a saved man you riaise questions about the honesty of that claim.

    Earlier someone in the comment section said that he/she "doub[ted] his [JM's]salvation". This person then compared MacArthur's latest book to Richard Dawkin's book :"The God Delusion". In response to that post you said "I agree with all you wrote." Which is it Lou? Do you agree with your commentator or not?
     
  7. TCGreek

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    I may not agree with Dr. MacArthur's brand of LS, but I'm NEVER going to question his salvation.
     
  8. Rippon

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    John MacArthur has written in the neighborhood of 150 books. Even with reprints of his works concerning the subject of LS I don't think that could be considered a hobbyhorse.While you,on the other hand, have indeed made MacArthur-bashing your hobby. You spend a disproportionate amount of your time typing away on the subject of LS. Or is the subject really John MacArthur?At any rate you need to diversify.As many others have pointed out -- there are more needful things to address in the Kingdom of God. Get to work.
     
  9. Jarthur001

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    SOMEONE really needs to study the love of God.

    No matter how many threads are started, no matter how many times this folly is debunked, some people live for a mission to mislead others. It is their life.
     
  10. Lou Martuneac

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    Neither have I ever, in 20 years, questioned his salvation. At times I have defended him from those who insist he is unsaved.

    His salvation is not the subject of this thread. Those who do not want to deal squarely with the crux of the LS controversy seem to feel this is another opportunity to redirect the discussion. However...


    Lou
     
    #10 Lou Martuneac, Aug 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2008
  11. Lou Martuneac

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    Since God is satisfied with the finished work of Jesus Christ. Since God is satisfied with His Son’s propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Since God is satisfied with Christ’s atoning work.

    Why does LS insist that "salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?" Why does LS condition salvation on a lost man's resolve to. "forsake sin, turn from sin, and pursue righteousness?"

    Why does Lordship Salvation add what man must bring to God for salvation when Jesus paid it all?

    LM
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    Why must we believe? Isn't Christs work enough?
     
  13. Lou Martuneac

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    In comment #190 Ed Sutton demonstrated how you abused the Scriptures by forcing into them what is not there. See http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=51620&page=19

    It is sin to force into or extract from the Scriptures meanings that are not there. I trust you are not going to extract "believe" from passges such as:
    But, let' stay on subject. Since Christ's atoning work satisfied God, why does LS call on the lost for a promise to perform the God ordained "good works" (Eph. 2:10) that should be the natural result of salvation?


    LM
     
    #13 Lou Martuneac, Aug 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2008
  14. Goldie

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    Because they don't fully understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you look at most of Christianity and other religions, they're based on "Lordship Salvation".

    Roman Catholics - they pay penance and the priests laugh all the way to the bank.
    Muslims - do good works, only they believe in Allah (false god) and not Jesus Christ.
    Buddhists - refuse to kill ants, flies, cockroaches or harm anything - good works and
    their God is Buddha (an idol).
    New Age - Do good works as well and see God in everything - even trees.
    Methodists - Believe in a social gospel of good works which is based on John Wesley's "holiness" doctrine, otherwise known as "self-righteousness".


    From what I can gather, the majority of Christians believe in "good works" salvation, i.e., foresaking one's sins, blah, blah, blah in order to be saved - because their favorite saying is, "Look what he's done, and he calls himself a Christian!" So it is (inaccurately) believed that if you're a Christian you will never cuss, get angry, dislike anyone, break the speed limit, divorce, be greedy, lie, cheat, steal, etc, etc, but the very same people who hold this view are the ones who are divorced or get divorced, break the speed limit, lie, cheat, steal, cuss, etc, etc. So what does that tell you? That you have to be forever down on your knees crying and repenting and feeling guilty? I know a certain Christian forum like that, they call it "brokenness" - you have to be forever crying because you're so bad. IMO they might as well say, "Never mind Lord I can't listen to You now, I'm too busy saving myself".

    My question to them is this:
    So if it is so "easy" to be saved by simply foresaking one's sins - then why did Jesus die? And why don't good people like Mother Theresa go to heaven? (Mother Theresa was a Universalist, BTW who believed that there were many paths to God) - and that alone should answer my question. If she believed that Hindu's and Buddhists also go to heaven - did she actually believe in and understand the true Gospel of Jesus Christ? Same question applies to Lordship Salvationists - which part of free gift and grace don't they understand?
     
    #14 Goldie, Aug 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2008
  15. Jarthur001

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    This one line you keep posting over and over has been dealt with by many many times on this board alone. Why do you choose not to understand it?

    We are saved from Sin, and a person must have that desire to be saved from SIN. If a person only wants the benefits of salvation, but not want to be called a Christian, it does not work my friend. Demons believe in Christ, for they know what he has done. But demons do not want to follow Christ.
     
  16. Revmitchell

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    Ed proved nothing. Ed has a habit of running around trying to be the fact striagtener and ends up lacking in them himself. I wouldn't point to hm. I quoted scripture just as it is. I added nothing to it whatsoever. You guys must really be desparate to try to bear such a false witness. I will wait for you apology. The sin is yours and Ed's. I will post them again just as unedited as I did the frst time:

    Mar 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." (ESV)

    Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (KJV)


    Mar 6:12 So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent (ESV)

    Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent. (KJV)


    Luk 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish (ESV)

    Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (KJV)


    Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (ESV)


    Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (KJV)


    Act 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, (ESV)

    Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (KJV)

    .
    Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, (ESV)


    Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (KJV)


    Saying that I somehow added to scripture when all the board can see and read for themselves lacks reality. Thanks for pointing that post out. I had missed it. And have reported its false witness against me.



    John 3:12 says "to them that believed gave he the power to become the sons of God.

    Belief is absolutely required. If you do not believe in Christ there is no salvation. Either you believe that God imposed that belief on us as the reformed to or you believe we accepted and chose to. Either way belief is a precursor to salvation.
     
  17. Lou Martuneac

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    REvMitchell:

    I have gone back and corrected my previous comments. Originally, they were wrong and and a misunderstanding of what Ed was demonstrating. I sincerely apologize for the misinterpretation of Ed's notes on your view of the passages that are in question. To reiterate, they have been corrected.


    LM
     
  18. Lou Martuneac

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    Since Christ's atoning work satisfied God, why does LS call on the lost for a promise to perform the God ordained "good works" (Eph. 2:10) that should be the natural result of salvation?
     
  19. Revmitchell

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    You will have to clear up for me what you corrected. Your post still falsely accuses me.
     
  20. Lou Martuneac

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    As soon as you can acknowledge that repentance for salvation is NEVER about turning from sin...forsaking sin, the resolve to stop committing sin, and implying the intention to start obeying.

    When you drop that teaching from biblical repentance because it is not there.


    LM
     

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