Watchman Nee

No one is suggesting that anyone get credit for salvation other than the Lord. Scripture is explicit to say that salvation is of the Lord. To argue that would be futile.

However, that in no way changes what constitutes a work and what does not. If I have to "do" something to maintain my salvation that is in direct violation of at least two Scriptures. Therefore what you are proclaiming is a salvation that flies in the face of Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

The later explicitly tells us that salvation happens in the past and the matter is over and done with. So going back to the passage where Paul is talking about missing out on salvation if we don't suffer or other passages that say we will miss it if we don't endure can not contextually be speaking about eternal salvation.

If that is true then Scripture contradicts itself and then as brother would ask how many contradictions are you willing to live with in Scripture?

See that's the amazing thing about God's Word, it's not left up to our interpretation. We can either believe what it says or we can dance around passages that make us feel uncomfortable or that we don't like.

Eternal salvation according to Scripture is a one-time event that happens to a person and the matter is settled for ever and ever and ever and ever . . . The subject never comes up again.

What you are proclaiming is a non-secured salvation.

 

II Timothy

I again ask you to back up your statements and answer directly the question, how are we of subject when dealing with the teachings of Brother Nee?

Again you stated: You stated:"vs. 10 gives us the salvation which is being spoke of here."
Please explain what you are trying to say here. Maybe we are misunderstanding your intent in what you wrote.

 

The salvation is defined by the phrase "eternal glory". Eternal meaning forever and glory meaningreigning with Him. the suffering in this passage is not to secure our own salvation but to win others. Paul says he is suffering for the elects sake. Not his own.

 

II Timothy II

You State: Eternal meaning forever and glory meaningreigning with Him. the suffering in this passage is not to secure our own salvation but to win others.

As I agree with you that consistantly in this passage, Paul is speaking of the same salvation, I would disagree with your thoughts that this must mean our new birth salvation. Your theology here, if you do indeed believe in eternal security, would have to totally ommit the rest of the verse which you have failed to elaborate on. According to verse 12, there is a reward for suffering - to the faithful- and a punishment for denial - also to the christian. If he is dealing with spiritual salvation, what is this christian being denied, salvation which he already obtained and was sealed?
We must stay consistant with the context of scriptures. There is no possible way to view verse 12 contextually without the doctrines of rewards and loss of such.
Also, Paul did seek a reward for himself. There was a crown of life waiting for him. Why? Because he ran the race, he finished his coarse, he fought the fight. Not just because he was saved. He also stated that there was a crown waiting for not only him but for all that LOVED HIS APPEARING. Again, a reward for the faithful. This isn't just haphazardly given to all who believe upon Christ. There is a stipulation.

Thank you for your soon coming response concerning II Timothy 2:12b.

 

It is not speaking to punishment for believers. It is speaking to punishment to unbelievers. It is a comparison between the two. And even if your convoluted idea was correct it still has no context in the millenium. Its just not there.

 

II Timothy

You stated: It is not speaking to punishment for believers. It is speaking to punishment to unbelievers.

Wow! I have never heard this argument before. I believe Paul was a saved man pseaing to saved people in II Timothy. If WE deny Him, then he says He will deny US.

The We and the Us refer to Paul, Timothy, and the other believers. No where in its context does he say they and them. With all respect I ask, do you believe in the inspired Word of God?

Contextually, the we and us are the same people both times.

 

And yet you brushed right by the fact that the millenium isnt is this passage. The phrase if we deny Him implies if we are not of Him. In other words if we are lost. This passage is a comparison to those who believe which are always faithful and thos who are lost who deny Him.

 

II Timothy

You are still skirting around the authority of the inspired Word of God.
He isn't comparing saved with lost for he didn't fear losing salvation. I believe God meant what he said through Paul, literally. We don't need to seek a "spiritual application here when it is solid and literal in meaning.

You say I skirt around the millenial not being mentioned.

Vs. 1 speaks of whom Paul wants to reign with - Jesus Christ. When will Christ REIGN? In the Millenium. Now he is the High Priest. Though He may "reign" in our hearts, he is not presently "King of Kings and Lord of Lords." Satan now attends the throne as Ruler of this present age. CHrist has yet to take his authority from him. When will this take place, immediately efore the Kingdom begins.

Vs. 2 Paul tells Timothy to teach other FAITHFUL MEN. These men are saved, not lost because they are faithful. So far Paul, in context, is dealing with ony saved people.

Vs. 3 They are to ENDURE HARDNESS. Why? So they can be saved? No they are already saved.

Vs. 4 Still dealing with Christians

Vs. 5 These SAVED individuals are not yet crowned. Before they can possibly be crowned, they MUST strive lawfully. Also he is to STRIVE to recieve this crown. We do not STRIVE for salvation.

Vs. 6 Again, he drives home the point that they are believers.

I will skip 7-9 for time. If needed I am more than glad to talk of these later.

Vs. 10 He deals with the elect, the SAVED (Past tense) then he says he does this thzt they may OBTAIN the salvation with eternal glory. We see their salvation, then we see their seeking for the salvation which is in view.

vs. 11 We are to be dead with him. See Luke when he deals with losing our life (soul)

Vs. 12 So far we have only dealt with saved people seeking a crown. What is a crown needed for? to rule? To rule with who? Christ Jesus who is the "him"of vs. 12. His authority as King sitting upon the throne which Satan now adornes will take place during the Millenium.

How could this be viewed any other way. After we are saved, what are we to seek? Heaven? NO. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God.

 

All this assumes the only reigning will be in the millenium. Which is false. You might try Rev 22:5. and it is not logical to assume that to have been making a comparison of the believers and the lost he had to be fearful of losing his salvation. what is skirting arounf the authority of scripture is the double salvation heresy as well as having to earn one of them. More eisegesis.

 

The teaching that man is "body, soul and spirit" is DARWINIAN EVOLUTION?!? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard (today anyway). It doesn't even VAGUELY relate to the issue of creation, evolution, etc...

JDale

 

Re-read it:

The teaching that man is body and soul or spirit is the teaching of evolution; dichotomous.

Scriptures teach that man is body, soul and spirit; trichotomous. Just as we were created in his image and he is trichotomous.

 

II Timothy

By this statement, I am starting to feel as if you believe that if someone is saved they NEVER deny Christ in any way, shape, or form. To say those who are lost are the ones who deny Him would be to say that onced a Christian recieves eternal life he would never break the 1st, 2nd, nor 3rd commandment. I guess this would make Peter a lost man for he indeed denied Christ thrice. Also we would have to catagorize Peter as a lost man again at Antioch for he was dealt with at the church council of Jerusalem.
Where do we place John Mark? Saved or lost? What about Ananias and Sapphira? Would they not in type be denying him since they lied to the Holy Ghost? Were they not part of the Church?

This is just to name a few of the examples. We could go to the old testament for examples given by Lot, his wife, Moses as he struc the rock a 2nd time, etc.

My question is this: Can a Christian ever deny Christ in any way?

 

II Timothy 2:1-4

I thought these verses might help as we deal with this subject. Brother Nee felt it vital to warn Christians of the soon coming Judgment Seat. Too many today are believing that God "owe's them somthing" when they have done nothing.

Remember the Words of Christ in Matthew 10:32-34 / 10:38-39.

 

Denying Christ(while it is tragic) to save your skin and denying Christ in your heart are two different things.

 

denying Christ

Denying Christ is denying Christ, period.

Now that you agree that believers can and do deny christ, at what point do you believe it is "crossing the line?"


A few pages of reading from the Fox's book of Martyrs will show that numerous understood that denying Christ for any reason was wicked and not something to be tolerated by God. The new they would stand before the One they refused to deny. They could have but they SUFFERED because they refused to deny.