Water and Blood

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by mman, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. mman

    mman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    I John 5:6-8 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

    Matt 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized (water) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; (blood) and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Spirit).

    In Acts 2:38, we have the Spirit, water and blood all coming together and agreeing as one as stated in I Jn 5:6-8.

    It can also be noted that the same Greek phrase which is translated, “for the remission of sins”, is used in both Acts 2:38 and Matt 26:28. If one tries to say that we are baptized because we have already received forgiveness of sins is the same as saying that Christ’s blood was shed because peoples’ sins had already been forgiven, which we know is impossible.

    Since Jesus’ blood, that has the power to forgive sins, flowed at his death, how can we come in contact with his death? Romans 6:3-4 tells us, “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

    The death, burial, and resurrection. This is the gospel according to I Cor 15:1-4, “Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures”. Since this is the gospel, how do we “obey the gospel” (II Thes 1:8, I Pet 4:17)?

    Back to Romans 6, Paul said in verse 17, “But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (death, burial, and resurrection that he talked about in verses 3 and 4) to which you were delivered.” He had already stated in verses 2-4 that they were no longer slaves to sin because they had died to sin, were buried with him in baptism, and were raised to walk in newness of life, thus obeying that form of doctrine (death, burial, and resurrection) talked about in verse 17. This is how we obey the gospel. Baptism is how we come in contact with the blood of Christ that flowed at his death. This also shows the significance of John 19:34 that states, “But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.” Baptism is how we get INTO Christ, where all spiritual blessings are and where salvation is found (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27, Eph 1:3, II Tim 2:10). This is why Paul was told to “…arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord” in Acts 22:16. If we did not come in contact with the blood of Christ at baptism, this would not make any sense whatsoever, since only the blood of Christ has the power to wash away sins. This agrees with Eph 5:25-27, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. This also agrees with Col 1:13-14, “He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins” and later in Col 2:12-13 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

    Furthermore, it agrees with Gal 3:26-27, “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” They are what? Sons of God. How? Through faith. Where? In Christ. Why? Because they had been baptized into Christ.

    Peter, through inspiration, tells us of the importance of baptism, instructing the people on the day of Pentecost what they needed to do to receive the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). If you or I had been in the crowd on that glorious day, what would we have done to obtain the forgiveness of ours sins? The same thing that they did, repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins. Then at baptism, you would be added to the church according to verses 41 and 47, “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them” and “praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.” Only those who received the word were baptized, saved, and added to the church. This is in total agreement with I Cor 12:13 which states, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…”. Later, he stated in I Pet 3:20-21 “…in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ”

    Preaching the good news about Jesus, absolutely includes water baptism. This is clearly seen in Acts 8:35-39, “Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. How did the eunuch know about water baptism? Because Philip preached Jesus to him.
    Perhaps, our Lord, in his final instructions to his apostles, gave the easiest, most straight forward statement on the subject in Mark 16:16, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” This verse tells us what to do to be saved and what to do to be condemned.

    Can water alone wash away sins? Certainly not, only the blood of Christ can do that. Water, by itself can no more wash away sins than it can cure leprosy. Yet, through Naaman’s obedience to God’s instructions, he did just that as recorded in 2 Kings 5. God’s grace has given us instruction on what is required to be pleasing to Him. Through faith, we submit to God in baptism, coming in contact with the blood of Christ, having our sins forgiven, and being added to the saved who are in Christ and in his Church, where every spiritual blessing exists.

    There is a wonderful Old Testament pattern given for our learning. It was a shadow of the good things to come. Heb 9:19-22, “For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” 21And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

    Here we have water and blood being used to purify. God gave Moses specific instructions for the construction of the tabernacle, courtyard, and furnishings. Only the priests were allowed into the holy place. Today, Christians are a priesthood (I Pet 2:5,9) serving in the holy place or house of God/Church.

    Heb 10:19-22, “Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

    We know the house of God is the Church (I Tim 3:15). We can enter the Church by the blood of Jesus. Here we have our hearts sprinkled with blood and our bodies washed in water.

    Where did God tell Moses to put the laver of water? Between the alter (blood) and the door of the tabernacle (holy place) – Ex 30:17-21, 40:7, 30. That fact alone should be enough to tell us the proper order, that baptism precedes salvation as is also stated in Mark 16:16. The penalty for trying to enter the holy place without washing in the laver was death! Yet how many people today teach that one is saved before he is baptized. Therefore, they could not enter the holy place without having come in contact with the blood and water. They did not come in contact with the blood and water after they were already in the holy place, but before!

    The priest of old had to continually offer sacrifices and wash. Just as Jesus, our High Priest, needed only once, for all time, to offer his blood sacrifice, we also only need once to wash in the waters of baptism to come in contact with His blood. When we are washed and have the blood applied to us, we can serve as His Priests in the holy place (church).

    Matt 26:28, “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    The two things listed are for the remission of sins, the blood and the water. It is no wonder or coincidence that blood and water flowed from the Savior’s side, at his death.

    He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
     
  2. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    We have no indication of the thief on the cross being baptized.

    I submit that the phrase 'for the remission of sins' would be better translated 'because of the remission of sins'.

    Because you have repented and received the Holy Spirit (at the time you believe you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise", you should want to follow up and be baptized.

    We know one receives the Holy Spirit at the time one believes because of the passage in the latter part of Acts 10 when Peter said, 'Who can forbid that these should be baptized seeing they have received the Holy Ghost?"

    Baptism cannot save a person, but it is necessary in a believer's life. Baptitsm is an outward confession of your faith in Christ Jesus.
     
  3. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    The thief did indeed undergo baptism: Jesus talks about the baptism which He must undergo ie: the crucifixion. The thief underwent the same baptism
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    when Jesus was speaking of being baptized with the baptism He would be baptized with, He was speaking of His suffering on the cross.

    But the baptism that mman is speaking of is not suffering, but water.

    My point is the thief was not baptized with water.
     
  5. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Granted.
     
  6. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Casuistry is not the way to prove a doctrine. So jumping to the theif really doesn't prove anything concerning Baptism. If you wish to learn about baptism go to where it is talked about.


    No where is in Scripture is baptism ever called the outward confession, instead it is called that which saves you and that which unites you with the death and resurrection of Christ. In addition, translating εις as "because" would not be a legitimate translation except in the case of a reason for, so really it would still be indicating the reason for baptism is the remission of sins.
     
  7. mman

    mman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heb 9:16 - For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

    The thief on the cross lived under the old law. The statement by Jesus was made when the old law was in effect.

    The is no indication that the thief was not baptized under John's baptism.

    If you want to learn about baptism, read where the bible talks about baptism.

    This exact phrase is used in Matt 26:28. Do you have any problem or question as to what it means there? Was Jesus' blood shed BECAUSE of the remission of sins or in order for people to have have the remission of sins? Surely you don't suggest that Jesus' blood was shed because peoples sins were already forgiven, do you? There is NOTHING in the text to suggest that the meaning is any different in Acts 2:38 and Matt 26:28.

    Oh really? Then why did the inspired Apostle Paul ask an impossible question in Acts 19:2, "And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

    When did the Samarians receive it, when they believed or when the Apostles laid their hands on them? Read Acts 8:12-15.

    Did you really read what was written or just dismiss it because it is not what you belive?

    Did Jesus really mean, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" or was he just kidding and he really meant to say "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized."? Baptism washes away our sins according to Acts 22:16.

    So, you want to move the laver into the Holy Place?
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus hears a death bed repentence. He plainly stated in His Word that His blood was shed for the remission of sins.

    Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    His Blood Brings the remission.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Here we see that it is just believing in His name that brings remission of sins.

    Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Here it is faith in His blood that brings remission of sins.

    Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

    Here it is the blood that brings remission.

    My uncle made a profession of faith on his death bed and went out into eternity singing Jesus Loves Me. He was never baptized. One cannot tell me based on those scriptures above that my uncle died a lost man.

    Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    Since believing on Jesus name and His blood bring remission of sins, the water baptism is only an act of works following salvation and the remission of sins. Water Baptism does not save anyone, nor does it wash their sins away.
     
  9. mman

    mman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    While there have been several baptisms, there is only one today according to Eph 4:5.

    Preaching Jesus includes instructions for water baptism (Acts 8:34-35). Peter knew which one was in effect (I Pet 3:20-21).

    There is only one baptism today. Accept one and reject all others.
     
  10. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nowhere in the Bible can we find scripture to indicate that thief was baptized by water. Nowhere!
     
  11. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    I see lots of good things about Christ Blood but nothing about Baptism.
     
  12. mman

    mman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nor can you find where he wasn't. Did you not understand about the thief living under the old law and we are under the NEW covenant.

    So, Jesus didn't really mean what he said in Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"?

    From you name, "standingfirminChrist", indicates you are "in Christ".

    According to the scriptures, how does one get "into Christ"? Why don't you do a search on "into Christ" and let me know what you find.
     
  13. mman

    mman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why are you being inconsistent? You understand Matt 26:28 but you think Acts 2:38 should be translated differently, even though it is the EXACT same greek phrase.
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again, it is faith in Christ and in His blood that brings remission. Scripture plainly shows this. see Scripture verses posted above.

    The Spirit seals the believer as belonging to Christ at time of Believing. Ephesians 1:13,14

    Water baptism follows Salvation and does nothing to save or to wash sins away.
     
  15. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you are calling God a liar?

    1 Peter 3:21 "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you..."

    Very interesting that you make these claims despite the fact that God through His Apostle says in very simple terms Baptism now saves you.
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    That verse goes on to say baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. It does not save you, It is a response to your salvation which you receive through belief in Christ.

    Paul and Silas did not tell the Phillipian Jailor that he had to be baptized to be saved. Philip did not tell the Ethiopian that he had to be baptized in order to be saved.
     
  17. mman

    mman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    To be quite honest, I expected this type of response. I have shown through the scriptures how the water and blood are tied together, even how it was foreshadowed under the old law, and you are basically saying, no it doesn't.

    You say water baptism follows salvation, but Jesus said, in Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Notice, he did not say, "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized."

    You say baptism does not wash away sins, Acts 22:16 says it does.

    You say baptism does not save us, I Pet 3:21 says it does.

    So, did you find what the scriptures say about getting INTO Christ?

    Baptism is "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) the same way that Jesus blood was shed "for the remission of sins". Just because you don't believe that or say it isn't so does not negate this fact.

    The bible does not contradict itself. Any verse you find in the New Testament concerning salvation does not negate Mark 16:16, but rather it compliments it and is in total agreement.

    What were the believers in Acts 2:37 told to do? They did not have the remission of sins because they were told to do something in order to receive the remission of sins.

    The original post shows how the water and blood are connected. Sure, I expect some to reject it without fully considering it. I also expect others to say, "your wrong", without providing any evidence to the contrary. Some will think I'm wrong because I present something contrary to what they believe. My purpose is not to argue but to present information and let people study it for themselves. If they have an area that they can't reconcile, make it known. If you don't agree, so be it, but just saying you're wrong is of no benefit to anyone.
     
  18. mman

    mman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, water baptism is an answer of a good conscience. Why? Because God said to do it. Something in this verse saves us. What is it?

    If you want to talk about the Philipian Jailer, he was told to believe. Then he was baptized. Then he rejoiced, having believed. That is the whole order of events.

    Philip preached Jesus and the Eunuch asked about water baptism, therefore, preaching Jesus includes instructions for water baptism. If you want to learn about baptism, read all the verses that deal with it. Why would preaching Jesus include instructions for water baptism? Because Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

    Do you believe Jesus or was he just kidding?
     
  19. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    10,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Who says the verse in question has anything to do with baptism at all?

    When a woman is ready to deliver a child, her water breaks. Doesn't that make most all of us "born of water"?
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Man is born of water and the blood when man places his faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    When the roman soldier pierced Christ's side with the spear, it was not just blood that gushed out, but water also.

    That tells me what Jesus was referring to was the future death on the cross when he told Nicodemus that man needed to be born of the water and the blood.
     

Share This Page

Loading...