Featured Water and Spirit

Articulate the answer for me please. Jn 3:8 is prerequisite to entering the kingdom, NOT synonymous with it.

Does ANYWHERE in the dialogue between Christ and Nicodemus is it stated that all those born of the Spirit will indeed 'enter into the kingdom'? All it says is one must first be born from above in order to enter into or even see the kingdom of God. It does not say that they will definitely enter into it.

 

17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14

So, all of His children will experience 'righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit', guaranteed?

I don't think so. Actually I'm convinced it's quite the opposite. I believe it's very few that ever find it.

 

In the end, eternally, I agree. But while we live here on earth, to have life and to have it abundantly, we're not guaranteed of that simply because we've been 'born from above'. It takes conscious effort on our part to partake of the joys of the kingdom:

5 Yea, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in your virtue knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge self-control; and in your self-control patience; and in your patience godliness;
7 and in your godliness brotherly kindness; and in your brotherly kindness love.
8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he that lacketh these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:
11 for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 1

 

I prefer YLT here:

12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,
13 who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1

Those who receive Christ, who were already children of God (v. 13), now have the power to mature and become Sons of God, as Paul drew the distinction between 'children' and 'sons' in Ro 8.

But nowhere is it indicated that these will indeed in fact will become 'Sons of God'. Go, rehearse the parable of the 'four grounds'.

 

Since Jews didn't think in terms of "going to heaven when you die", then you can check that one off your list. As JonC pointed out, Ezekiel 36 and its entire context refers to the New Covenant and resurrection as involved with the kingdom.

 

I agree here about the "going to heaven" issue, particularly in the mind of a Jew. Their #1 concerns, scripturally speaking, were their inheritance and an earthly kingdom.

They did not, however, automatically tie these to resurrection and true righteousness

Just as with believers today, the resurrection of believers seems to have been a side note doctrine. Yeah, we believe it, but it really doesn't have any substantial affect on the whole of doctrine.

Today's believer is commonly micro-focused on the inner man - are you going to heaven when you die.
The Jew then was micro-focused on temporal things

 

I'm with Rev. on this one. Notice right after Jesus told Nicodemus, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, Nicodemus ask a question, referring to the natural birth. How can a man be born when he is old ? can he enter the second time into his mothers womb and be born ? The question that Nicodemus ask is the key that unlocks the door to the answer you are seeking for. Christ explained that a watery birth is just a natural birth or a fleshly birth. That which is born of flesh is flesh. I think what a lot of people get hung up on is the statement Christ made, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit. Of course a man has to be born naturally before he can be born from above.

 

.....are you sure of that? lol:

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother`s womb.
44 For behold, when the voice of thy salutation came into mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. Lu 1

 

Well most of the time.:laugh:

 

Neither. When God transfers a person from the realm of darkness (in Adam) into the kingdom of His Son (in Christ) we are immediately saved forever. We have spiritually entered the kingdom of God. We have been born anew spiritually, undergone the circumcision of Christ, and arisen in Christ a new creation, created for good works.

 

This book has been an important reference for me in the past, but the same could be said concerning many of his books. I have a 'Pink library' of books I've accumulated over the years.

Pink early on was Dispensationalist, but later rejected it and actually wrote against it. I believe his view concerning regeneration may have changed also.

Pink is quoted in this excerpt from 'Immediate, Holy Spirit Regeneration' By Zack Guess:

".... the Holy Spirit is the sole agent in regeneration. Here it will be good to quote Arthur w. Pink in his book, The Holy Spirit, pp. 56,57:

In His work of "quickening," by which we mean the impartation of spiritual life to the soul, the Spirit acts immediately from within, and not by applying something from without. Quickening is a direct operation of the Spirit without the use of any instrument: the Word is used by Him afterwards to call into exercise the life then communicated…The soul, then, is quickened into newness of life by the direct and supernatural operation of the Spirit, without any medium or means whatever…No, men are not "quickened" by the Word, they must be quickened in order to receive and understand the Word.

Pink says on page forty-nine of the same book:

In regeneration one of God’s elect is the subject, and the Spirit of God is the sole agent. The subject of the new birth is wholly passive: he does not act but is acted upon. The sovereign work of the Spirit in the soul precedes all holy exercises of heart- such as sorrow for sin, faith in Christ, love toward God… This great change is not a gradual and protracted process, but is instantaneous: in an instant of time the favored subject of it passes from death unto life.

Note: A number of Sovereign Grace groups agree with what we Primitive Baptists teach on the so-called Five Points, but very few agree with us on the doctrine of Immediate Regeneration. There are some, notably the Protestant Reformed denomination, W. G. T. Shedd, a Congregationalist, A. W. Pink, W. E. Best, and a few others. Some theologians seem to talk out of both sides of their mouths. In some places in their theology books they seem to teach Immediate Regeneration while in other places they plainly teach Gospel Regeneration."

 

The issue of this thread is the meaning of being born of water and Spirit. It is not about regeneration/rebirth before faith or faith before regeneration/rebirth. Scripture is clear on that topic too. We are chosen through faith in the truth, thus faith before regeneration.

 

Question for all those who are convinced that Jn 3:5 is an allusion to Ezek 36.

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

Is Christ implementing a brand new never done before thing here, or is he revealing a mystery from of old, something that always had been?

 

The new birth is certainly alluded to in the Old Testament. And pouring out water prefiguring being sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit can be found in several verses. Instead of translating the Greek born of water and Spirit, what if we viewed it as born out of spiritual water?

 

That's about as clear as mud to me. I'll rephrase the question:

Were saints in OT times 'born from above'?