Water vs Holy Spirit Baptism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by On the side of truth, Jan 28, 2006.

  1. On the side of truth

    On the side of truth
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    I am a newbie to the BB though I have browsed many topics in here lately. This is my question to those of you who are spiritual and have a sincere desire to share truth. Here it goes The church we attend believes that the "one baptism" spoken of in Ephesians 4 refers only to water baptism and that is the only baptism needed for today. They also teach that Romans 6:3-4 is also speaking of water baptism. I am not looking for folks in this forum to say what they think which is right but I am looking for solid Bible verses to back up what they believe. Emphasis on Scripture. I have enjoyed reading the thoughts of many of you and have learned a lot on here and I hope that this continues. [/LIST] [​IMG]
     
  2. donnA

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    I'm not really clear on what your question is.
     
  3. genesis12

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    John 3:16-17, John 14:6, Romans 10:8-13. Context is everything. The New Testament is a context. One examines the Truth of any position taken by comparing scripture to scripture throughout the New Testament.
     
  4. bapmom

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    The literal water baptism is a picture of what happens to us spiritually upon salvation. What "other" baptism are you wondering about?
     
  5. On the side of truth

    On the side of truth
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    The question is whether or not there is only one baptism for us today and if that baptism is water baptism. I always thought that there was Holy Spirit baptism at the point of salvation. Am I wrong? Could you please post scripture references with your perception of this doctrine? Thanks... [​IMG]
     
  6. donnA

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    We recieve the Holy Spirit when we are saved, then we are baptized with water.
     
  7. Me4Him

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    Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

    Ac 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (Water)

    4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

    5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,

    which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


    There's "TWO" prior requirements before being "Water" baptized,

    1. Belief in the name, "JESUS".
    2. receiving the baptism of the "Holy Ghost",

    then you're "qualified" for "Water baptism", not before.


    John's "water" was for "repentance", but "repentance" doesn't "pay the wages of sin", (death) that's why the "NAME" Jesus must be acknowledged before receiving the "Holy Ghost", and no Jesus, no ghost, no salvation.

    Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    God won't "hear" you unless you come through Jesus.

    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:

    no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: (unsaved)

    but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
     
  8. rlvaughn

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    In light of your position, how do you interpret Acts 8:4-25? Thanks.

     
  9. johnp.

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    If we bear in mind that the disciples were clean before Pentecost (John 13:10) then we cannot take the beginning of the Spirit filled Church as normal for the Church. There is a period of change going on from the old to the new. Samaria was not considered Jewish and so falls outside Israel and in the world.

    JN 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
    JOEL 2:29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

    There had to be a start so we cannot take it as normative.

    I think John's baptism was for making the Israelites ceremonially clean so God could walk amongst them. It did not save.

    The Church is promised the Holy Spirit JOEL 2:29, we are His Temple 1CO 3:16, He lives in His Temple so every Christian receives Him.
    Each one of us has the Holy Spirit indwelling us as a reality to be believed. After He enters His Temple that is the time to be baptised, (Rom 8:7).

    Are you talking about feelings? I know I received an experience on praying to Christ and I wasted a lot of time after that trying to get zapped again.
    All Christians are baptised in the Holy Spirit because we are covered by Christ and immersed in Him.

    Acts 8:16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

    This is the beginnings of the Church because later we read: Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus... It is no longer into His name but into Him. Rom 6:7.

    Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens to all Christians whether they are aware of it or not. I think.

    Any help On the side of truth? (What's Tri-State?)

    Good to meet you.

    john.
     
  10. On the side of truth

    On the side of truth
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    This is exactly what I have always believed. I always thought there was spirit baptism and that water baptism always pictured that. However in Romans 6:3-4 our Pastor believes that baptism represents the death,burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In refuting Holy Spirit baptism he asks the question how can Holy Spirit baptism represent the resurrection as you would have to come out and up out the Spirit. You would no longer be saved at this point,I guess is what he is saying. What do y'all think?
     
  11. Me4Him

    Me4Him
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    There's a lot of people who get confused about this "transitional period" from the old to the new, guess they need to learn what the following verse means.

    Mt 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    Teaching an "old dog", new tricks is hard, and even harder to convert "older people" from life long beliefs to a "new covenant".
     
  12. Me4Him

    Me4Him
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    John
    (What's Tri-State?)


    Where the boundaries of "THREE" states meet.

    Example, Ky, Tn, Va.

    Where I live.
     
  13. GospelExplained.com

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    Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

    It may be helpful to keep in mind the following when considering this topic of Spirit or water baptism: who is DOING the baptising(minister or Jesus), who is the baptised, and what is the substance being baptised into (water or Spirit).

    Many baptists confuse with protestants the idea that the Holy Spirit is the baptiser, whereby the Holy Spirit essentially baptises into Himself. Hence a NEW unbiblical baptism is created where the baptisor is the Holy Ghost. The Bible only supports two types of administrators of Baptism, a minister with water, and Jesus with the Holy Ghost as first seen at Pentecoste giving power to witness/filling. Imagine a pond full of water, and a room full of the Spirit (pentecost)- individual is immersed either way.

    This topic is interelated with the topic on the nature of the church. So those who hold to the protestant universal church theory (created by infant baptisers to unify protestantism against the common foe RC some time after Calvin probably early 1600's) will focus moreso on 'Spirit' baptism, vs those who hold to a pure Bapist position with no universal church will focus on 'water baptism' - in various Bible texts. Then follows the topic of church practise - open or closed communion etc...

    Before going to 1Cor. 12:13 for support of the Holy Spirit being the administrator, consider verse 3 very carefully. As a result of being convicted BY the Holy Ghost do we confess Christ as Lord. Also we are led BY the Holy Ghost into obedience to be water baptised. Now look at verse 27 in a Greek interlinear to clearly identify what the Corinthian church is.
     
  14. bapmom

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    On the Side of Truth,

    Perhaps it is the way your pastor is stating it, but Im confused about why he would think that coming UP out of the water spiritually would signify us losing our salvation. This seems very odd to me, and in fact makes a red flag go up in my head.....but Im not sure why, or at least its not something I really know how to articulate at this point in our discussion.

    Perhaps it would help to clarify a few things....like what does he teach about the unbaptized believer? Are they truly saved? He might be what we call a "baptist brider", where only those who are baptized members of a Baptist church are part of the bride of Christ. To me this is also a confusing distinction, and I don't know that I can explain it any further.

    I don't know that Id leave the church over such a thing, as Im not sure that it would lead to any sort of doctrinal error....though perhaps someone else can clear that part up for us better. But I do think it would be wise of you to look at the other doctrinal issues being taught in the church and see what else is going on.
     
  15. Watchman

    Watchman
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    On the side of the truth. You have the same thing posted in two different forums.
     
  16. Me4Him

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    "Water baptism" can also be interpreted as "being submersed" under the influence of the "WATER" Jesus gave the woman at the well, in other words, believing his words/doctrine.

    Spiritually speaking, the sequence would be this.

    1. water baptism, believing his words
    2. Spiritual baptism, Spirit
    3. Water baptism, physical body

    What's spirit is spirit, and what's "physical" (flesh) is physical, salvation is a "Spiritual" event, the "physical" has no part in "Salvation".

    Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
     
  17. mima

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    I believe the answer given by Me4him is the correct one. As a Baptist Baptist who has received the gift of praying in tongues, I sometimes wish people like your pastor would receive this gift and then be asked about it. Those who do not have the gift, indeed have been conditioned against receiving the gift, make very poor judges of the gift.
     
  18. rlvaughn

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    If we accept the premise that those conditioned against receiving the gift make very poor judges of the gift, the reverse is also true -- those conditioned in favor of receiving the gift, make very poor judges of the gift. The only fair judges would be those not conditioned either way.
     
  19. johnp.

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    Hello rlvaughn.

    With tongues it is more difficult for others to know if it is a gift or an imagination. The gift of brewing a good cup of tea or healing people is not so hard to distinquish.

    As far as I am concerned I don't mind if people speak in tongues, I don't. I believe they are genuine when I see that order is kept and I can doubt them if it becomes a free for all.

    In my first Church there was an agreement of the membership that tongues were not aloud in the morning service. They had wise reasons for this. We were a teaching Church but we taught why we had decided this course of action, yet at housegroup it was fine. I have been to other places where everyone is jabbering gibberish and writhing on the floor and I think whatever turns you on. To our own master we stand or fall and we will stand.

    I do not want the gift mima, hello mima :cool: , one should not be pressured to ask for a gift one does not want. The Holy Spirit distributes His gifts as He sees fit and I thank God He didn't see fit for tongues and me. I'd rather be gifted with the tea. :cool:
    I understand though that the ones that speak in tongues are in a special and profound place and many I have know are very keen on everyone doing it, even Paul was as bad as you, but I would rather not. I have intimacy with Him, I do know profound and we are all special to Him.
    I have heard the most beautiful noises coming from a group of women singing in tongues at my first Church. It just broke out in the coffee lounge one night.

    john.
     
  20. Salamander

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    Not relating "tongues" to Acts 2 it isn't, nor is it relating the gift of the Holy Ghost. That gift of the Holy Ghost is salvation by the washing of regeneration by and through the shed Blood of Christ.
     

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