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Way church was done

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by gb93433, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I think the church for many years has been much like the American school system where the teacher is the knowledgeable person and the students are not. That works until there begin to show some who know scripture well. I attend a church in which the pastor does not have a lot of the academic skills I have but he is a godly man. I was in a church years ago in which the pastor asked me questions and asked me to help him with some sermons. I never told anyone because I did not want to interfere with his ministry among the people.


    The main thing I look for in a leader is if he has made disciples. If not then how does he have a clue on how to reach people and build a church? If the leader wants people to follow him then al we need to do is to see who is following. If nobody is following then he is just taking a walk.

    A problem I have encountered is that too often people repeated what they have heard from someone else. There was one time when two leaders who were on the church growth board at the state level came to me telling me how to grow the church we were at. I explained to them about how we were in a much different community and why I did not agree with them. One of the churches they named was pastored by a man I was in class with some years earlier in seminary. So I called him and he told me it was a bunch of hype and what he really thought about what was being said about him.

    What I look for is proof of ministry. If they have no followers then God is not using them for at least at that time.

    The man who taught me the business I eventually got into had reached more people in his life than most large churches could hold. So I knew that lay people can and do reach others. The proof of ministry is what is needed for leadership.

    A man once told me that he noticed that those who were older when they went to seminary had little trouble afterward but there were many more among those who were young. Some choose to engage the political party and preach the views of the politicians. One time I presented the following material to a politician and asked him to find if he disagreed with anything. He told me that he could not. Then I asked him what he do with the information. I could tell it made him very uncomfortable and he walked away in a few minutes.

    The Qualifications of Pastors and Deacons
    I Timothy 3:1-13
    H. (11) The women have qualifications too
    1. Who are the women? Look at the verses before and after.
    a. We know that Phoebe in Rom. 16:1-2 is called a diakonos
    Rom. 16:1 2 _ "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well."
    She obviously was a servant in the church. Paul refers to her as a servant, a diakonos, the same word used for deacon. As we look at Paul's writings he does not emphasize the office, but rather the function.
    b. In Hebrew there is no word for wife. The way it was expressed was "the woman of him." This very same expression is used in the NT. In Greek there is only one word for woman and it can mean either woman or wife.
    Of the 215 uses of the word for woman, only one seems to be controversial in its translation.
    "wife" - the woman of him
    - the woman of a man's name
    It is clear from the context that it is someone’s wife that is being talked about.
    "Woman" - always clear from the context
    c. In the Greek text there is not a definite article before women or at least a genitive pronoun following the word "woman". This would lead one to translate that word "women" and not "wives"
    d. Another point is this: if Paul did mean wives of deacons, then why did he not include a corresponding set of qualifications for the wives of pastors?
    e. You might ask "if Paul meant deaconess, why didn't he use that word?" At that time there was not a word for deaconess.
    f. There is plenty of evidence that the early church utilized women in ministry. There were women whose responsibility was to work with other women and children. They performed pastoral work with the sick and the poor and helped at baptism. From the earliest times deaconesses visited the sick, acted as door-keepers at the women's entrance to the church, kept order among church women, taught females in preparation for baptism and acted as sponsors for homeless children. They also carried official messages. There was a clearer line drawn between the sexes than there is today. Women deacons were not on the same level as men deacons. They could not teach and minister to mixed groups of people or men, and they were not ordained.
    For the first 1200 years of Christianity there is loads of evidence of woman deacons in the church. However, the Western Roman Catholic church never had them. Whereas, the eastern church did.
    Many countries outside of the U.S. have women deacons in Baptist churches.
    g. The emergence of deaconesses is unclear. But in the third and fourth centuries the office of deaconess developed greatly. In a letter dated 112 A.D. Governor Pliny wrote a letter to the emperor Trajan. 'In it he mentions a couple of deaconesses.
    (Loeb Library Series, Pliny, Book X, XCVI, 8, 289)
    h. The relationship between the male and female deacon.
    If the pastor needed to contact a woman it was told to a deacon who told a deaconess who told the woman. It is still done that way in some countries in that part of the world.

    Conclusion
    Most of the qualifications that deacons and pastors must possess are qualifications that most Christians should possess. I believe that there are two reasons for qualifications of a pastor and deacon. One is that God knows the pain that would be inflicted upon an immature pastor and deacon and the pain the immature pastor or deacon would inflict upon others. Secondly it would be a standard and a warning for those who hold the office of deacon or pastor.
    Pastors and deacons must be men of good conduct and sound in their faith. They must be people who prove themselves to be an example, not simply as a position of authority. In the church of God there is only one authority and that is Jesus Christ. He is the head. All of us are merely servants.

    There are three men I speak with each month that I have known for over 38 years. I speak with one of them each week. One of them has been a pastor in Germany for several years, another was a church planter in Ethiopia for 23 years, and the other with a parachurch organization. All of them are making disciples.

    I agree there are those who are spoon fed but I have also seen what happens when you are not like them. Too many times the issue is not about trying to get at the truth but about the political line. Remember politicians want people just like them in their camp. They want the truth when it fits their agenda and views.
     
  2. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Friends United Meeting and Evangelical Friends International would disagree with everything you said.
     
  3. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    "Friends" is the modern rendition of Quakers is it not?
     
  4. mandym

    mandym New Member

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    2Ti 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
    2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
    2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
    2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
     
  5. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Well, they actually designated themselves as "Friends" almost from the beginning, or "Children of the Light". They were called Quakers in derision by a judge whom George Fox told to tremble in the presence of God, whereupon the judge asked him if he was a "quaker."

    Today there are Friends or Quakers all across the theological spectrum, from fundamentalist to very liberal. The two groups I mentioned are moderate-evangelical and conservative-evangelical, respectively. They are also the largest of the Friends groups -- although "large" is an adjective that really cannot be applied to friends numerically. They have had a large impact on Christendom , but not numerically so.

    The most liberal group is the Friends General Conference, composed of "silent" meetings. But instead of this silent worship being infused with fervor from the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as the original Friends meetings were, modernist liberal Friends have been largely taken over by left-wing rationalism.
     
  6. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Perhaps the most famous modern "Friend" is Richard Foster. I disavow Foster's teachings on spiritual disciplines, not because the disciplines in and of themselves are a problem, but rather because his own doctrines and beliefs are so far from mainstream orthodox Christianity. Ties can be shown between Foster and the "coexist" movement and also with interfaith pluralism. Especially in that some of his works are based on alternative religious and philosophical practices such as Buddhism, New Age, etc.
     
  7. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    I haven't read much of Foster or modern Friends, with the exception of Howard Brinton's book, Friends for 300 Years, and Margaret Hope Bacon's The Quiet Rebels.

    I prefer to stick with the originals: Fox, Penn, and the Friends' original systematic theologian, Robert Barclay.
     
  8. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    I'd prefer to set aside the "friends" as an abbarant experiment in non-biblical Christianity.
     
  9. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Non-biblical? Oh, you mean actually doers of the word rather than hearers only. Somehow I prefer those who actually follow Jesus's teachings and example.

    I find Calvinism, fundamentalism, and the RCC to be experiments in non-Biblical Christianity.

    Well, we were having a good discussion until now, but I guess I should have realized it couldn't continue.
     
  10. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    "You shall take a high churchman, who is a truly spiritual man, and there are such people, and you shall set him down side by side with the most rigid member of the Society of Friends, and when they begin to talk of Jesus, of the work of the Holy Spirit in the soul, and the desire of their hearts after God, you will hardly know which is which." —Charles Spurgeon, "The Common Salvation"
     
  11. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Atlanta Constitution, Oct. 31, 1886, p. 7:

     
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    And at that point the assembly had one of two choices. They could ask the lady to be quiet for there was a clear violation of Scriptures, or the folks could leave the building showing rejection of the woman in favor of the truth of Scriptures.

    By not taking direct and specific action and the Scripture being violated placed the assembly as Ichabod - the glory has departed.
     
  13. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    That is sheer untrue foolishness.
     
  14. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    preacher4truth--

    Really? Instead of reading the books, looking up the scriptures they reference, and then debating, you choose to demean me by implying I am so old that I need a bladder control product?

    Really? Instead of reasoned debate, you go on a rant how you base your beliefs and actions only on the scripture, all the while totally ignoring 1 Tim 5:1-2?

    Really? No wonder these days when we seek to evangelize the lost they are indeed eager to meet Jesus, but run for the hills when we invite them to a Baptist church.

    Why indeed, when petty little men set themselves up as "elders" to judge and demean anyone with the audacity to disagree with them.

    You were correct in one respect: we need to base our beliefs and actions on the Bible, not changes in the Convention. Which is exactly why some of us who brought about the CR now seek to stop it from going off into the ditch on the ultra fundamentalist side.
     
  15. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    They will run if your home base is a Baptist Church. They will not if the church is not an issue and Christ is the focus. There have been people whom I have met with for quite awhile and never invite them to church. Once they see a need to attend church then they may ask to go with me. I do not go to a church where I would think that a non-believer might see things that are not holy and honorable.
     
    #35 gb93433, Feb 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2012
  16. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    nodak --


    Shucks, I acted like you...don't get your knickers in a twist.

    You seem rather self-willed and controlling from what I've read. This has lended itself towards your thinking on pastors. Your first concern in your first post is who has authority in the church. Really? Wow.

    You then in your second post talk again of your authority, after dismissing or diminishing the authority of the pastor. I see a pattern of needed validation and of needing control/authority.

    I can see where this is going, and have seen this displayed in many churches. It ain't pretty. :love2:

    Your first concern should be being a servant, not one of authority. And your attitude toward the office of pastor that is bleeding through is one of cynicism, which was brought to fruition by times and circumstances.

    Next, you come off telling another to go read a book and get back to you. More of you bleeding through. I'd gather from all of this that when you say 'let's all learn together' really means no one can teach you anything, you're authority yourself. That's the way you come across.

    Go read 1 Timothy 5:17; I Thessalonians 5:12,13; Hebrews 13:17; and show how you fulfill that (counting them worthy of double honor, esteem them very highly, and obey them) and how you treat your pastor with its instructions and get back to me. And tell us what exactly your 180 turn from the authority of pastors entails, more than that you discovered you yourself are in control and an authority. Tell us also how obeying this is like a cult as you suggest in your first post.

    Also avoid the typical extreme that desires to run to pastors being a dictator or other prattle. Obeying and honoring pastors is not synonyomous with them being a dictator, it's your biblical duty as a servant, not as an authoritarian.
     
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