Ways to reveal false doctrines

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Lorelei, Mar 13, 2002.

  1. Lorelei

    Lorelei
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    This topic came up in another thread and out of courtesy for that thread I want to address it here so that the current thread can remain on topic.

    Someone was addressing the fact that though I believe Catholics are following a false doctrine I am not supposed to tell them that. That it won't do any good. So just how should someone address another person who is being led astray. Why is sharing the Truth with them considered "unloving".

    Here is my response to thier post:



    What did he say?

    how many times did Christ cry out "Woe" to the scribes and Pharisees and those who were supposed to be living and teaching God's Word but instead they were defiling it and leading others away. Did Jesus just "love" them and shut his mouth? No, he cried out!



    No you beleive it because we don't recognize your church, not because of scripture.



    I haven't and don't claim to condemn anyone, I am just stating what the Word of God teaches, I leave the condemning up to God. It is my prayer that you will open your eyes before that condemnation takes place.

    Our talk here may not do any good, but by not showing you the truth I am not doing you any good either.

    ~Lorelei
     
  2. tulpje

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    1 Peter 3
    15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

    2 Timothy 2
    14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

    1 John 1
    3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
     
  3. Juan Diego

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    Lorelei,
    My first question before going any further is, "What happened to the thread on St. Patrick?"

    Juan Diego
     
  4. Lorelei

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    I don't know! It was still there when I made this one, that is WHY I made this one. Wierd...maybe it got moved to another forum? Or possible deleted, but I don't know...

    *sigh*

    ~Lorelei
     
  5. Clint Kritzer

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    Between administrators and moderators there are at least 10 fingers on the panic button in this forum. One of them punched it during the night I guess. The St. Patrick thread was here last night before I went to bed.

    - Clint

    [ March 14, 2002, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
     
  6. chz

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    I almost responded to this post in the St. Patrick discussion but it was very off topic.

    I think that for practical discussion purposes, telling someone in this forum that they are following a "false gospel" serves little purpose. I can assure you that I truly believe in my heart that you are following a false gospel, as do all Catholics. Likewise, other denominations believe that I follow a false gospel and most of them probably think you do also. It is a given that we all believe that we follow the truth.

    At the same time, it is greatly disrespectful to plainly state that someone else is following a lie. I know you do it out of love but the cost of that love is respect. When two people don't respect each other, discussion is useless.

    My understanding is that this forum is here for discussion of non-Baptist doctrines. If you don't want to put respect for Catholics above your love for them, you will probably not have very many meaningful discussions with them. Maybe I'm wrong but I think our purpose here should be to seek understanding of each other and not conversion of each other. At least for this board, it would be nice to show each other's beliefs respect and understanding and allow the Holy Spirit to do the conversion of our hearts.
     
  7. UncleRay

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    Greetings Juan, Clint and everyone else,

    Juan asked:
    My first question before going any further is, "What happened to the thread on St. Patrick?"

    Our moderator Clint responded
    Between administrators and moderators there are at least 10 fingers on the panic button in this forum. One of them punched it during the night I guess

    That thread started off light enough then turned as hateful and mean as anything I've seen on this board. I was dismayed that the fine Baptists, including pastors, that I have met on this board did not object to the venom spewed in the name of truth. As I have backed off a bit from this board, the posts still remain in my mind. I'm not surprised by disagreement, but totally expect and anticipate it with good will. "Good will" is the key.

    And then over night, poof! :D

    The ten fingers: (exegesis: ten moderators, not just one person counting thumbs [​IMG]

    The Holy Spirit is alive, well and active on the Baptist Board. Hallalujah! Hallalujah!(Can you hear the choir?)

    As much as I love ole St. Pat, may the St. Pat thread Rest In Peace.

    Grace and peace,
    Uncle Ray

    PS: When people argue scripture, without goodwill, I'm always reminded of the old definition of exegesis.
    Exegesis= Exit Jesus :D
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    One of the difficulties (or two as it may be) is that people become convinced of doctrine and any time anyone says anything against it, it is labeled hate speech. It is not hate when someone tells the truth. It may not be comfortable for the one hearing it but the most loving thing we can do for people is tell them the truth. The second difficulty is one of authority. As we have talked about many times, once we abandon the authority of Scripture, our doctrine becomes pluralistic. A good catholic has, of necessity, abandoned the authority of Scripture for that of teh church. He will, therefore, never be able to answer doctrinal charges on a consistent Scriptural basis. Nor will he be able to submit himself to the doctrine of Scripture since he has abandoned his authority. The situation we face in many discussions is that the RCC argues from a position that is not consistent in either authority or exegesis (which he learns from authority) with that of Scripture. Hence, a heterodoxy has been introduced which binds the adherent of catholic faith to an unalterable belief. He cannot evaluate his belief on teh basis of Scripture for that would be to abandon his authority.

    How do we expose false doctrine? We preach and teach the truth of Scripture, tactfully but directly expose those who do not hold to it, and trust the Holy Spirit to do his work in the elect.
     
  9. Calvinist Dude

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    Lorelei said:
    But Christ responded this way to the religious leaders, not to the followers. We never see Christ responding in any way except compassion and love towards the average Jewish person. Over and over in scripture we see strong condemnation for people who are perverting Biblical truths to set themselves up as righteous. That is why Jesus responded with such anger. But we never see that attitude displayed towards those who are genuinely following certain teachings, even if those teachings are false. The only proper response to those you disagree with you has to be humility and love. Jesus's example does not apply in the case of those Roman Catholics who are on this board.
     
  10. Lorelei

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    First let me clarify just what this forum is for.

    This is a Baptist Board, where Baptists come and talk about thier faith with one another. Before the board was opened up to those of other faiths and denominations, catholics were forbidden to post at all.

    The Catholics who kept trying to post insisted that it was not fair that they were unable to "Defend" themselves against things that we stated about them here. So we opened this forum so that they could have a voice.

    So we see that, we were speaking our beliefs to each other and Catholics came in and heard it. We were not seeking them out on the Catholic forum and telling them they were going to hell. They came to us, to correct US.

    Then, when we continue to state our beliefs, we get yelled at as being unfair, yet they came seeking the discussion, we did not.

    Another point I want to make, is that you can't compare our discussions here with how we handle this issue in our real life. The entire point of the message board is to discuss our beliefs. I don't go see a Catholic on the street and tell them they are going to hell, but when I visit with them (and have some who are friends, I point out those beliefs and let them know how I stand). When I log on here, I log on to discuss this exact issue with those who have come to tell US we are wrong. At home, I visit with my friends, do you see the difference. This forum was made so that I CAN speak my peace and it shouldn't be taken as a personal issue.

    As for the fact that Jesus was upset with the leaders and not the followers I say this, on this message board in this forum when you come and "stand up" for your Church and thier beliefs, you are playing their advocate. You then allow yourself to become one who is leading in defending the false practices and are prone to the same example, for after all, your very words might lead someone else astray. That is where the condemnation lies, when one causes another to fall.

    ~Lorelei
     
  11. UncleRay

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    Hi Chz,

    Well, you caused me to break my obviously light committment to back off from the board. [​IMG] But I had to thnk you for your thoughful post. Thanks.

    Pastor Larry,

    Thanks for your post also. I usually disagree with you but I saw no hate in your comments. I won't detail my disagreement today, because I'm "backing off" a bit. ;) As best I can.

    I'm the one who mentioned "hate speach". It was certainly not because someone disgrees with me. Or that they disagree with the Catholic Church.

    If someone refers to, what we Catholics, believe as the Church our Lord Jesus Christ established as a "whore" repeatedly and uses phrases like you Catholics are "condemmed to hell" it goes beyond disagreement.

    People frequently misstate Catholic beliefs as you did in your post. But you did not do it out of malice, but I think out of your honest misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. That's OK. We Catholics don't mind attempting to clear up misunderstndings. I chose to refer to the "whore" business as hate. Which I think it is.

    Something that is not hate but just a poor way of convincing others is the approach of using the word "truth" as the basis for condeming others.
    We have the "truth" and you don't. Therefore you're wrong and I have the obligation to condeming you. (It's important to add, I condem you out of love.) Don't all faiths think they have the truth. I've yet to meet someone who proudly states "Our church doesn't teach the truth".

    It seems silly to use that argument with such smugness.

    That said, I must go to work.

    Thanks Chz for you good words and the Holy Spirit for guiding the delete finger.

    Grace and peace,
    Uncle Ray
    PS
    Dear Lorelei,

    I'm sorry that I got so off topic. I just didn't want to start another thread, since I "backing off" :D . Forgive me for messin' with your thread.
     
  12. chz

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    Please forgive me for misunderstanding the purpose of the board. I do recognize that I'm playing ball on your court and I am doing my best to follow all the rules. I also don't have a good feel for the past history here so bear with me.

     
  13. Promise

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    Chz you said
    "All non-Catholics are doomed to eternal torment because they refuse to see the Truth.

    Just what truth are you talking about? The truth of the RCC doctrine or the truth written in the bible (God's Word)?
     
  14. chz

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    Either one will do. My point would be probably clearer if the Truth I was speaking of was the truth written in the Bible. Please, though... I'm not after a discussion on who holds the Truth. My hypothetical quote was intended solely for the purpose of illustrating a point and not for creating a whole new discussion.
     
  15. Juan Diego

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    Dear Chz,
    That was an excellent post. I appreciate your eloquence.

    God bless you,
    Juan Diego
     
  16. Juan Diego

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    Thank you UncleRay,
    You have my utmost respect. Your ability to put love and respect into every post you write has me in awe. I am humbled. I sometimes get riled by the words of others who are disrespectful, proud, and downright insulting and I respond in a less than Christian manner. You are an example to me and all others.

    God bless you,
    Juan Diego
     
  17. Juan Diego

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    But you chose a public place to do such and therefore invite others to read and the result is they want a chance to respond. Have you found any Catholic forums that refused to allow non Catholics to participate?



    Thank you that *is* fair.



    Isn't that what you're saying is the duty of a Christian?



    Which was very unfair. You're in a public place.

    I certainly hope so.

    Keep doing that and you won't have many friends. How about convincing them of your conviction by how you live your life and treat others. Don't you think that would be more effective?



    OK. I can buy that, but sometimes I see some who cannot articulate their beliefs become very unchristian. Just the term "false beliefs" toward another is somewhat inciteful and is demonstrative of an ignorant person. I look at such a person and immediately form the opinion that he is very prejudiced\bigoted unable to back up his belief with true knowledge. If you want me to see that my belief is false you (1.) best not call it false (2.) and you should explain it to me using references and explanations that will convince me that it is false without my having to hear that it is. Once you are able to do that, I will not have a problem with calling it false myself.

    It's not the pride issue so much with hearing "false," but I have a tendency to turn off someone whose couth allows them to say it.

    First you are assuming that the leaders of my Church are liars and hypocrites and that I am standing up for such. I couldn't disagree with you more.

    I don't assume that the leaders of your church are liars or hypocrites because that is called rash judgment. It is unchristian to make such judgment of others. Let me give you an example. I am convinced that Joseph Smith was a liar and a fraud that perpetrated a hoax on his followers. But for me to treat any Mormon that believes and defends it as though he was a liar and hypocrite is uncalled for, unchristian, and definitly unconvincing to him.

    Do you see what I am saying Lorelei?

    You are assuming they are false. Maybe you are the one playing the part of St. Paul????

    Articulate your beliefs intelligently, logically, and without malice and then be willing to admit when they don't match up logically. OK? Is that fair?

    God bless you Lorelei. I hope that I haven't said anything here that offends you and I look forward to further conversations. I haven't yet responded to your first post and will get to it, but not right now. I have a life outside of this board and need to attend to it.

    Peace be with you,
    Juan Diego
     
  18. Lorelei

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    You aren't "playing ball on my court", you are here to show me that my court isn't accurate. See the difference? Then when I question your court, I am the offensive one.



    Show me one post (Other then this one, I did it for and explanation not a condemnation) of mine where I did this.

    Most others you disagree with do not do this as well. The "harshness" usually doesn't occur until a conversation has taken place over time. It finally comes down to a point where the challenge is laid out, it has failed and the verdict has to be spoken "you are wrong". There is no getting around it in conversations such as these. But, as soon as the words are out, we are considered "unloving" for speaking them.



    I do understand why you find it offensive and I am trying to explain that we aren't motivated to offend. Ever hear the saying "the truth hurts"? Sometimes it does, but don't blame the bearer of the bad news, blame the cause of it.

    Don't you think that we would find it offensive that you are all here to "Prove us wrong"? You come here, to our home, to tell us just how wrong we are and you see nothing wrong with that? We aren't running the Catholic forums and doing the same. I DO have respect for your faith, so I don't go in your church (or message board) and shove my ideas down your throat then call YOU unfair and unloving for standing up for yourself in your own domain.



    If you want them "challenged" go to a non denominational board, if you want them opposed, go to the opposition. You have come to a place where we not only "challenge" Catholics, we oppose them and all they stand for. Our reason for the opposition is based in scripture. Christ and the apostles warned us to watch out for false prophecies and we will continue to expose them as he would want us to do.

    I am glad you find this a challenge, but do be honest and admit that you are not here to challenge your own faith, you are here to challenge us. At least be honest in your motives. Otherwise, why would a Catholic come to a Baptist board?

    ~Lorelei
     
  19. LaRae

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    Lorlei,

    You are forgetting something....as a Christian if you think ANYONE (regardless of denom) is in error your only obligation is to pray for them....no where are you called to attack them ....nor are you to cause a stumbling block for anyone else....

    LaRae
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    We are also to separate from them:
    Romans 16:17-18 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.

    We are to call attention to them:
    3 John 9-10 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.
    Christ himself practiced this method with false teachers all throughout his ministry. Those who follow in the footsteps of Christ must also point out false teaching and false teachers.

    We are to earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints (perhaps as opposed to the faith being continously delivered through church tradition):
    Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

    We are never commanded to tolerate false doctrine. Souls are at stake; eternity is in the balance.
     

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