We Do Not Limit Atonement!

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Feb 16, 2003.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men , or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is, that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it: we do not.

    The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die to secure the salvation of all men? They say, "No. certainly not." We ask them the next question- Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer "No." They are oblidged to admit this if they are consistent. They say "No, Christ has died that any man may be saved if"-and then follow certain conditions of salvation.

    Now who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, You. You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, "No my dear sir, it is you that do it."

    We say Christ died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it... C.H. Spurgeon

    Amen!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  2. JGrayhound

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  3. Frogman

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    Amen!

    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. Rev. G

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    I'm not going to argue with my hero, Spurgeon. However, I want to contend that Arminians limit the atonement. They limit its power. The atonement, for the Arminian, has no power without faith being added to it.
     
  5. Yelsew

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    We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men , or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is, that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it: we do not.

    I presume this whole post is C.H. Spurgeon's writings, so I will comment on what he said.

    The Christ's death on the cross is not selectively human specific. If it had been we would not be arguing this matter, for all the humanity it was selectively meant for would be saved already by that death. There would be no reason for belief and faith. The fact is, it was a ONCE for ALL sacrifice, one that is contingent upon the ones for whom the sacrifice was made. The sacrificial Lamb said, "if I be lifted up I draw all to me". Since it was not common then, and is not common now that humans converse with stones, trees, and other species of life, except in a stewardship or an excentric manner, it must be assumed that Jesus in so stating that, was addressing men, ALL men and only humans. So then, who is man to declare limits on what Jesus' self-sacrifice was for? He declared the limits, and since we are constrained by those limits we make ourselves look very foolish indeed by stating it differently than what Jesus stated.

    Atonement cannot be limited by man because it was not made by man. However man can fail to understand atonement and can imagine variations that are non existent. Man can do one of two things regarding atonement, accept or reject. There are no other choices, because it has been fully accomplished. Nothing remains except the work of the father which is "belief".

    The facts are written, and oft spoken, it is up to the reader and hearer to determine the truth, and that is where the Holy Spirit comes in. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to affirm the truth that we have read and heard. It is up to us to believe or not believe.

    I respect C.H. Spurgeon's writings, but I do not agree with all of them.
     
  6. Frogman

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    Statement #2 renders statement #1 to be error.

    If man has the ability to 'reject' then he certainly has the ability to limit the atonement. This would equate to Christ not dying for all sin, thus leaving off the sin of rejecting, or unbelief.

    This ability to reject the atonement also would render God helpless to which He cannot perform His work, which is belief. Thus, giving man an ability to limit, both, the atonement and the power of God to make that atonement effectual to those He calls.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  7. JGrayhound

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    Very true, Frogman. That is a dead on rebuttal of his view. Arminianism = logical inconsistency.
     
  8. Yelsew

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    If I reject atonement for myself, how does that limit atonement for you? It has absolutely no effect on you. There is nothing that I can do to effect God's atonement for anyone but myself and those I fail to teach because of my rejection.

    Although the ability to 'accept or reject' atonement is universal among men, the reality of it having an effect on God is a figment of your imagination. God cannot be frustrated by anything that man does. God has been self existent for all of eternity and needs nothing from man. Atonement is universal, but mans belief is not.
     
  9. JGrayhound

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    I believe he means that: if you reject the atonement for yourself, you have now limited its extent to everyone but yourself. You have acted as to exclude it from you. I guess one could also say, that it is no longer for the whole world if you reject it. Hmm. That gives me an even bigger look into the inconsistencies of Arminianism.
     
  10. 4study

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    Both Arminians and Calvinists limit the atonement of Christ's blood. This is because it's taught to be limited to the sin of human beings and thus does not inlcude all sin but just some sin.
     
  11. Yelsew

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    You are wrong JGrayhound! Atonement remains for the whole world (whosoever believes). Atonement is what God the Son did for mankind, and is not effected by man. One's acceptance or rejection of atonement affects the one only and not the whole of mankind. No one man's rejection of atonement affects any other man's atonement. Atonement is not limited by man in any conceivable fashion.
     
  12. Frogman

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    No one man's rejection of atonement affects any other man's atonement. Atonement is not limited by man in any conceivable fashion.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It most certainly does become limited by the will of man in this scenario.

    bro. Dallas
     
  13. romanbear

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    Hi tyndale
    Atonement is not about security.It's about a blessing of grace
    Romanbear
     
  14. JGrayhound

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    You are wrong JGrayhound! Atonement remains for the whole world (whosoever believes). Atonement is what God the Son did for mankind, and is not effected by man. One's acceptance or rejection of atonement affects the one only and not the whole of mankind. No one man's rejection of atonement affects any other man's atonement. Atonement is not limited by man in any conceivable fashion. </font>[/QUOTE]First, I said that "I believe he means...". It was my attempt to translate it for you, obviously it did not work.

    Second, you have contradcited yourself. You said "atonement remains for the whole world (whosoever believes)". Is it the "whole world" or the "whosoever believes"? It cannot be both, because the whole world does not believe. So, which is it?????
    If we can't get past your contradictions we can never have a real discussion.
     
  15. JGrayhound

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    Furthermore, I did not say I agreed with what I posted, but it was the logical conclusion of your post before.
     
  16. Yelsew

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    Do trees sin?
    Do cattle sin?
    Do mountains sin?
    Do oceans sin?
    Do winds sin?
    Do Clouds sin?
    Do the lilies of the field sin?

    Do any of the above read the Holy Scriptures?
    When the prophets spoke, was it to these things I listed?
    When the Apostles "went to all the world, was it these that they made disciples baptising them?

    NO! Every scripture is aimed at MAN and Man alone! You must stop to think when you try to apply scripture. All scripture is given to man and only to man!
     
  17. JGrayhound

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    You know what I mean.

    The question is: all men or all men who believe?
     
  18. sturgman

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    First, on a personal note, is this the JGray from the Derek Board?

    Second, Yelsew, you limit atonement. Unless the first church of yelsew is now a universalist church. You limit it's power to mans choice to accept or reject. Calvinist limit its design, that it atones for the sins of all those who believe, (the elect). So don't tell me that you don't limit it. Because if you believe that Jesus died for all men unlimited, then all the world would be saved. Even the most consistant arminian would agree with that.
     
  19. William C

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    I think I know why Arminians always quote John 3:16 to debate Calvinists. Its because a Calvinist would never say it like Jesus said it in John 3:16. In fact, there is a lot that scripture says that Calvinist just wouldn't say. Let me list some examples of what scriptures say and compare it to what a Calvinist would say if they wrote the scripture:

    For God so loved the world..............For God so loved the elect in the world.

    That whosoever believes............That whosoever I give the ability to believe

    Everyone who believes............Everyone who has been given the ability to believe

    If you confess with your mouth.......If God allows you to confess with your mouth

    and believe in your heart............and God causes you to believe in your heart

    Repent and believe..........Repent, if you can, and believe, if God has given you faith.

    Come all who are weak and need rest.....Come all who are elect and need rest

    Jesus laid down his life for us, not only us but for the sins of the world.............Jesus laid down his life for the elect, not only the elect but for the sins of the elect in the whole world.

    Christ died for all........Christ died for all of us elect

    The Spirit of the bride says "Come!"............The Spirit of the bride says, "Elect Come"

    If you believe upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ you will have eternal life.....if God gives you the ability to believe upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ you will have eternal life.

    Go make disciples of all nations.......Go make disciples of the elect in all nations.

    The bible obviously wasn't written by Calvinists. The call of the gospel goes to all men and it is a geniune call, not some "pretend" calling so as to inable God to wash his hands of responsiblity for the non-elects eternal punishment.
     
  20. sturgman

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    Now Bro Bill, is that the right way to respond? I expect that kind of wineing from Yelsew, but you seem a little more educated of an Arminian then him. We both could act that petty if we wanted too. I have heard no calvinist try to rewrite scripture. Nor have I ever heard one say that they would like too. Many would say that arminians leave a bunch out, but never would we try to rewrite it. Let's not get petty here with out debate. Let us argue intellectually.

    Thanks,
    sturgman
     

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