We Do Not Limit Atonement!

1. Pay attention and watch.

2. Correction No. 1: I don't.

3. It is not a matter of showing you the Scripture. It is a matter of agreeing on what the correct interpretation of that Scripture is.

4. Correction No. 2: I don't believe it, and I am a calvinist.

5. Correction No. 3: I don't believe it, and the TULIP is still there.

6. Correction No. 4: I wasn't surprised. I was shocked that you admit that some are saved by their own goodness.

7. Great argument of defense and very well thought out.

8. The martyrdom complex was the worst part of the whole thread. You should have stopped right before you clicked on the "post reply" button.

 

What makes you think that atonement requires belief?

I said that the Christ's atonement is for the whole world, meaning all mankind, from which Jesus says "whosoever" which includes all or any part of all. It is not an either or situation.

Atonement requires no belief or any other thing from man. Atonement, a once for all, act by the Christ, on the behalf of all mankind, whether or not all mankind believes and whether or not even one man believes. Salvation however, is for "whosoever believeth in the son of God, the Messiah" only! The atonement makes it possible for any one of, or all of mankind, to come to belief in Jesus and thereby have salvation because the penalty of sin has been paid by the Christ.

 

Don't start that again, instead go back to each of the topics and read all the posts. You have jumped on one topic and one post and you make that out to be the whole of non-Calvinist beliefs. That seems to be a primary tactic of many Calvinists and extremely unfair to God!

None of the non Calvinists posting here has made any declaration that man is good enough to save himself from hell.

They have posted that man is not Totally Depraved, providing ample evidence that man was not changed from the way God created him into someone you'd avoid like leprocy. There is no indication whatever that a single change occured in created man or his decendents, except that their relationship with the creator that was destroyed upon gaining the knowledge of good and evil through sin. That knowledge did not kill them, or make them Totally Depraved but it did make their spirit dead from the Creator's perspective. "Dead" is a figure of speach used to indicate the Creator/created relationship, and not the condition of man. Man cannot live without spirit which is the life of the flesh. So, the flesh lives because the spirit lives and the spirit which is the image of God, has all of the attributes of God, save for the omni-attributes. Prove that wrong if you care to!

Now how is it possible for man to once again get in good stead with God? Not by works of the law, for no man is able to obey all of the law. Everyone in the Old Testament that God found favor with was accounted as righteous because of their faith in God. We are told throughout scripture that faith is what saves, that it is not of works lest anyman should boast. If man is not capable of having faith, man is not capable of being saved. Even though that is truth, man failed to believe until God sent his son to live among man and to complete the Work of God which is Belief, not God's belief but man's belief in God.

The only difference between saved man and lost man is the saved man believes in Jesus. Otherwise you cannot tell any difference in them whatever. If any of you preachers speaks before an unfamiliar congregation there is no way for you to tell who in your audience is saved and who is not! It is not given unto you to know that. You cannot even tell who is Calvinist and who is not simply by looking at them.

What is missing from man after the Garden is holiness, and that is why believers are told to, "be holy as I am holy". After coming to belief and having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, man is able to obey God and infact can behave in a holy manner.

Unbelieving man has the attributes that God gave to all mankind, and does know how behave in accordance with love, grace, mercy, justice etc. But without belief in God, man is lost, spiritually "dead" separated from God.

 

Hey preach I noticed you haven't answered my arguments in the post "Calvinism's teaching on total inability is unfounded in scripture."

I really would like to hear your thoughts.

Bill

 

everyone is/will be saved??

 

Then Romanbear and Ken H, you are what is known as Universalist. That is sad.

 

yep, sturgman, i was just waiting for them to say it.

either they are universalists or they have a serious contradiction on their hands (which makes their view self-referentially absurd).

either way, they are in trouble.

 

"everyone is/will be saved??"

IF YES, it is not by atonement, for salvation is by faith.

The Christ's Atonement is the payment for man's sin indebtedness, the propitiation for sin.

 

Yes, but this is only effective in those whom God gives an interest in it.

Bro. Dallas

 

Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and that through Him God has reconciled the world to Himself - that God will have mercy on all and that all will come to believe in Jesus as their Savior and bow their knee to Him, either in this age or through the corrective punishment in hell in the next age.

I do not believe that the second death is forever and ever for the Bible teaches that death will be swallowed up in victory. I do not believe that my God is going to leave some area in His creation where evil and sin continue on without end.

As can be seen in the debates in this forum and throughout this board, it is those who believe only some will ultimately be saved who have to deal with serious contradictions in their beliefs as they argue who is saved and how they are saved and why they are saved. I used to have to deal with that, but I thank God, no longer. The hope of universal reconciliation is truly the teaching of the Bible. Praise God!

 

No where does the Bible teach that sin and evil are present in Hell, but that is the everlasting place of punishment for unbelievers.

Ken, what caused this change?

Bro. Dallas

 

Hi Preach the word;
I'm sorry that you have taken offense to my faith and my belief in free will. Truth is that way, it hurts.The truth of the word cut's all the way to the bone and through the bone in some cases. Unlike you I can't except something that comes from the Catholic Church without checking it with scripture.You see the Bible needs no interpretation.It's now in English print for all in this country to have a look."Interpretation"Is how man looks at something when he is trying to explain it to himself or others.This is how you interpret.You change the real meaning of the words and sentences to make it agreeable with your own ideas. Gods Word is not a complicated piece of material that, has to be explained. It's in the explanation where you err. To the man who is not saved most of Gods word is foolishness, not all of it.Men Like Calvin come along and pick it up and thought to them selves how can this thing which so many believe be best used by me. After all he was a lawyer a master with words. He sets down in his sinful condition and tries to make it say what he wants it to say. He explains it to him self and he does so in favor of his preconceived ideas. He never see's truth because He doesn't believe in it. To him it's foolishness. Just a tool he sees as powerful because so many trust it. After he has written down his own explanation he goes out and tries it on others and finds that there are some who claim to believe it already and are mesmerized by it and the intellectual qualities of it all. They are surprised by his intelligence and believe in him rather than God's word.Then he uses it to control others like he did in Geneva. He now has an excuse to be the tyrant he has wanted to be all a long.Truly a man who seeks power for himself.They called him the Pope of Geneva Switzerland.

When I read scripture I don't try to analyze it. I let God do that. If I don't understand something, I pray and ask for the wisdom to understand. I believe the whole Bible because it is my God's instruction message to me. It's how I should live my life it's my Law. It's what I stand on.It's his precepts not someone else's. I try to abide by it with the help of The Holy Spirit. Not because I'm made to but, because I have genuine Love for my Lord. Love that I willing have. The real thing not something I'm made to do. You can't make some love you and expect real Love.I believe in this verse Psalms 118:8. I don't take anymans word for it I search the scriptures daily to see if these things be so.
Romanbear

 

Yes, but this is only effective in those whom God gives an interest in it.

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]NO, it is for whosoever will believe, and not just those whom "God causes to believe".

God created all there is, God established that belief in his Son is the criteria for Salvation, and he placed no limits on it.

God gave us his Son to atone for our sins, and established that atonement for our sins to be our justification.

God opened salvation from His chosen people to ALL gentiles who would believe in His only begotten son. It is stupid to think otherwise!

 

Correct. God did not limit it because it is of God, 'free-will' of man limits it, because this gives man a greater power than God, enabling him to reject that Great Salvation.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Then according to the traditional teaching of hell that developed during the Dark Ages, what is in hell? It doesn't appear to be the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Here are three articles that might be of interest -

hellbusters.8m.com/eby/torture.htm
hellbusters.8m.com/eby/lakeoffire.htm
hellbusters.8m.com/mbpunfailing.htm

As for me, all that has changed is my understanding of Christ's atonement and of the nature and purpose of hell. Other than these items I am a traditional Calvinist through and through. In fact, it is my belief in God's sovereignty in all areas, including man's salvation, that leads me to believe in Christan universalism - the Biblical hope of universal reconciliation.

 

Since the lake of fire is the one referenced in the Revelation after the 1000 yr. reign I read this one; According to what I read, this Lake of Fire does appear to have present the 'fruit of the Spirit.

I am saddened.

It also appears to me this article draws heavily upon Greek paganism; and further, for this to be the truth, then the sacrifice of Christ is ultimately performed in vain. To espouse this, does it not say that man can ultimately be his own propitiation? I think so.

My prayers are with you brother.

Bro. Dallas

 

I have heard non-Calvinists claim that we Calvinists draw upon Greek paganism/thought.

No, dear brother, Christ Jesus had to shed His precious blood to suffer the punishment for our sins so that God can save all. Have you thought about the fact that if the punishment of hell was without end, then Jesus would still have to be punished for sins right up to the present day and beyond, without end. Yet He filled up the cup of suffering so that He has reconciled the world to God. Any punishment in the lake of fire serves the same purpose as the trials that God sends upon us on this earth - to show us our need of Him and He only places the trials upon us that are needed to accomplish His purpose in saving us. What will happen in hell is of a like kind of purpose.

Praise God for His wonderful salvation!

 

I have heard non-Calvinists claim that we Calvinists draw upon Greek paganism/thought.

No, dear brother, Christ Jesus had to shed His precious blood to suffer the punishment for our sins so that God can save all. Have you thought about the fact that if the punishment of hell was without end, then Jesus would still have to be punished for sins right up to the present day and beyond, without end. Yet He filled up the cup of suffering so that He has reconciled the world to God. Any punishment in the lake of fire serves the same purpose as the trials that God sends upon us on this earth - to show us our need of Him and He only places the trials upon us that are needed to accomplish His purpose in saving us. What will happen in hell is of a like kind of purpose.

Praise God for His wonderful salvation! </font>[/QUOTE]Except for this last part, I cannot agree with you Brother. You are shorting the work of Christ; Yes Christ did fully satisfy the wrath of God; This satisfaction was not for those who were already condemned, as he hung on the Cross.

I cannot find your reasoning in scripture, so I cannot accept it.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

That's okay, Brother Dallas. Our salvation and our fellowship is in God's hands, not in our understanding everything alike.