WE might as well get this out in the open...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Feb 11, 2007.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    ...

    Is there or isn't there a difference between the soul and spirit?

    Calvinists say the terms are used ambiguously in scripture and that any distinction (correct me if I miscite you, Pastor Larry) has no implications for salvation or sotierology.

    I maintain that the soul is 1) what makes man separate from the beasts. It gives us awareness of self and, more importantly, awareness of God.

    2) Thus, it is our conscience, the place where sin is accountable and where salvation by justification is first recognized (Adam sinned and died immediately in his soul and we who believe live immediately and eternally in our soul because we "enthrone" God there). NOTE: cf: "In the DAY you eat of the fruit, you shall surely die." Gen 2:17. God didn't say Adam would "die progressively" --- or "die eventually" -- die that very DAY! Adam died immediately in his soul, progressively in his spirit, eventually in his body. Likewise today, "The soul that sinneth, it shall surely die" [immediately].

    3) The first step in salvation, then, is the JUSTIFICATION of the soul. Throughout the OT, we see God giving man, by faith, "the righteousness of God." Man's spirit (mind, emotions, and will) weren't made righteous/sinless -- his SOUL was. Which is why 1John 3:9 says "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed [and throne] remaineth in him [in his soul]: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Where else in man, all ye Calvinists, do you find this statement to be a true and unequivocal one?

    4) The next step in salvation, then, is the SANCTIFICATION of the spirit (mind, emotions, and will). Thus there are the 3 pieces of furniture in the holy place of the temple, you will recall, which held "illumination"/menorah, "worship"/censor, and "purpose"/shewbread. But notice -- the "Sacrifice" can't get to the soul but what it come through the flesh/outer court (that is, be heard) and the holy place (that is, be understood for what it is). First the Spirit has to light the light, right -- with the "heard word"/"incorruptible seed," 1Pet 1:23 Then one has to consider the purposes of God in light of the Spirit.

    But remember -- the regeneration is not outside the temple and it is not in this holy place either. It is farther in (Holy of holies in the ark of the covenant under the mercy seat. It is symbolically the "rod of Arron" that budded though it was cut off from its root. If you take the Sacrifice out from here, you are as one who draws back, Heb 10:39.


    Do you see the disnction? Do you see the sotierological significance? Have you been presuming that by sitting in the holy place (church) that you are saved and still have not taken Christ's sacrifice into the Holy of holies of your life by abandoning/repenting self and choosing Him?

    In the Baptist church we call it "surrender" when you give up ALL of yourself. In a Methodist church last week, I heard an invitation that made me cringe. The pastor (whom I love dearly) said, "If you have never made your salvation certain, I would invite you to come forward to one of our 'faith partners' and tell them that you want to give God more of your life."

    Friend, giving MORE in sanctification is NOT what God is looking for! Sanctification will NOT make your salvation certain. God is looking first for ALL! None of self held back. You "pick and choose" how you will trust Him you lose! There is one very certain way He wants you to come and it is not as "them who draw back, but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. "


    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Feb 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2007
  2. HankD

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    My understanding is that man is tripartite (3 parts - body, soul, spirit).

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Body - Through which we have awareness of the material world.
    Soul - Self Awareness.
    Spirit - God awareness.

    HankD
     
  3. Brandon C. Jones

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    I hate to break it to you, but dichotomy vs. trichotomy isn't a calvinist/non-calvinist thing outside of your imagination.
     
  4. skypair

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    Exactly, Hank! :D And one day our body being GLORIFIED will be "step 3" in salvation -- eventually we are saved in body on account of Christ just like Adam eventually died physically on account of sin.

    The body in the "temple" illustration is the "outer court" where our "good works" are seen. And obviously anyone who gives some thought to being saved either here or in eternity will do these even without the scriptures.

    skypair
     
  5. Grasshopper

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    I think a study of the word "soul" in the OT will show it is used for both man and beast.

    Not sure how this topic fits with the calvinist discussion. But evidently we don't have enough Calvinist threads. They might as well re-name this forum.
     
  6. webdog

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    I agree. I'm not a calvinist and I believe we are dichotomous (immaterial and material).
     
  7. johnp.

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    skypair.

    Genesis 1:20,21,24,30 all use nephesh chayyâh "living soul" to describe animals on land and water, even creeping things. The majority of translations render the Hebrew as "living creatures", although the JPS offers "soul" in verse 30 and Darby consistently has "soul" throughout. Clearly the concept of created disembodied souls sounds a bit ghoulish whereas "creatures" or "beings" feels a better translation.
    http://www.studylight.org/col/ds/archives.cgi?date=20060928&pn=7&sn=1

    And then you say 'thus', so if you are wrong with the premise, which, if the quote above is right, then all that you constructed on it collapes?

    john. :)
     
  8. av1611jim

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    I agree.
    We really do need more C/A threads here.
     
  9. canadyjd

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  10. Pastor Larry

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    The words for are used both for body and spirit. There is no clear distintion in Scripture, and certainly not with implications for salvation. Man is made up of material and immaterial.
     
  11. dwmoeller1

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    Yes and no. Sometimes verses seem to make at least a bit of distinction between the two, other times, they are used essentially interchangably. It seems the best way to view it is that they are different expressions for the same general thing and thus no clear distinction should be made.

    So, the bipartite view is correct but the distinction should be made, not between body and soul, but between material and immaterial. The soul and spirit become different expressions of the immaterial aspect of man thus accounting for the places where they are seemingly referred to in distinct ways and also the fact that they are also used synonomously elsewhere.


    Oh, and its definitely not a Cist/non-Cist thing. The best I think that one could say is that Cists might tend to lean more to the bipartite view.
     
    #11 dwmoeller1, Feb 11, 2007
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  12. dwmoeller1

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    If I understand you correctly, you are holding that
    a) man is tripartite
    b) the spirit is the mind/will/emotions of a man
    c) the soul is the part which is aware of God.

    I am curious
    1) Why do you take a position which is essentially the opposite of the large majority of those who hold the tripartite view?
    2) While I see the line of reasoning you use to establish that the soul is the part that is aware of God, where do you find the Scriptural support that the spirit is the mind/will/emotions of man?
    3) Do you believe this distinction between soul/spirit is used consistently throughout Scripture?
     
  13. skypair

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    I will admit -- there is some ambiguity in science about whether an animal has a soul/conscience or a spirit/intellect. There is also a confusion of the terms even among Christians. Don't let that distract you -- think it through. :D There is an important difference.

    skypair
     
  14. skypair

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    Great! Is it just that you haven't given it any consideration or do you have a reason for your "madness?" :laugh: For instance, how exactly IS our image like that of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

    skypair
     
  15. skypair

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  16. dwmoeller1

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    Easy question :) We have a moral element to our being. Evil and righteouness have meaning for us.
     
  17. skypair

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    Thank you, dw. I would suggest that the distinction MUST be made as it is the BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT that must be saved, no?

    And it IS a "Cist thing." What they don't know CAN hurt them. They can't regenerate or sanctify anything until they save the SOUL!

    skypair
     
    #17 skypair, Feb 11, 2007
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  18. johnp.

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    That is compared in Romans 3:10-18 skypair, exactly. :)

    Hello dwmoeller nice to meet you. :)

    Morality is based on the law of God and as such has no influence on God. God is morally good but in that morality He does as He pleases.

    john.
     
  19. skypair

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    Thank you again, dw! :D You are asking the questions that ought to be asked in this discussion!

    1) The objects to be redeemed don't match up otherwise. If the soul is who a person is and God is who the trinity is, then God ought to justify the soul. If the Spirit is the mind, emotions, and will of God (and He is, Prov 8:22-34), then it makes more sense that in order to have the "mind of Christ," we ought to have the Spirit of Christ living in us, 1Cor 2:14-16. And if Christ is the body of God, it makes sense that He would be the One to come and glorify us, right?

    2) Mainly in the way that the Spirit communicates to us. First off in salvation. It is the Spirit that convicts our spirit -- our intellect, right -- of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. It is not a matter of some not being "spiritual men" having no intellect. That is only the case of infants and insane. All can hear the wisdom of God (again, Prov 8:34 -- "...him that sinneth against me wrongeth his own SOUL; all they that hate me love DEATH.") Notice a) man's spirit (intellect) can wrong his own soul and b) if we hate the Holy Spirit in our spirit/emotions, we love death!

    If we are "filled" with the Spirit, He TOTALLY fills our thoughts, emotions, and will at the time. If we are indwelt by the Spirit, where does He work? He takes the word and works on our mind, emotions, and wills, right?

    3) Like you say, there is some ambiguity. I like the notion, though, that the soul could refer in a larger sense to who we are and also to a particular part of our person as it does with God. In addition, I do believe that the spirit goes where the soul does -- like to heaven when we die. In that way, it is also true that we are "material" and "immarterial" as some have crudely put it.

    skypair
     
  20. dwmoeller1

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    Morality is not arbitrary. Morality is based on the nature of God and thus is inseperable from God.

    How is this different from man?
     

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