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We need a team who can win

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by The Galatian, Dec 27, 2004.

  1. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    Anybody see light at the end of the tunnel in Iraq?
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    It will take some time, but we will win despite the anti-war pacifists.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    How much time? And, at what cost? And, is there a cost that would make "winning" a loss?
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    As much time as it takes, at any cost, and no.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    The troops aren't buying that story. Neither are the American people.

    It's time to get someone who can do the job.
     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    The troops voted for Bush by a 4-1 margin. The American people voted for Bush with 52% of the vote. Rumsfeld is employed by Bush. Rumsfeld is doing a good job.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Rumsfeld ignored the advice of people who knew what was going to be needed. Because he failed to provide enough troops, enough body armor, and enough armored vehicles, many American soldiers lost their lives.

    Now, belatedly, he's following their advice. Too late to save those lives though. And when he spoke to the troops, he lied about his reasons for doing it.

    He botched the mission. His generals have lost confidence in him. The troops have lost confidence in him. And the American people think he needs to go.

    He's hurting the war effort, and he's hurting America. He needs to go.
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Wrong. He followed the advice of those who actually know what they are talking about and are committed to winning the war, the generals on the ground. They have recieved everything they have asked for from Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld is helping win the war, and is an assett to America. The only effort he is hurting is the liberal anti-war isolationist effort. But, then again, the majority of America doesn't agree with them and their mission. He is doing a good job and is gonna stay right where he is.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Now he is. But at first, he put in far too few troops to get the job done, and gave them insufficient armor and protection to fight the war.

    Belatedly, he's started to increase numbers of boots on the ground, and he's now providing adequate protection for our troops.

    But he refused to believe the veteran officers at first, and a lot of Americans died thereby.

    It's good that he learned. But the cost was too high. We need someone capable of doing the job right.

    And BTW, Rumsfeld is a lot less optimistic about the path he's on than you are:
    Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror. Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?

    Does the US need to fashion a broad, integrated plan to stop the next generation of terrorists? The US is putting relatively little effort into a long-range plan, but we are putting a great deal of effort into trying to stop terrorists. The cost-benefit ratio is against us! Our cost is billions against the terrorists' costs of millions.

    Do we need a new organization?

    How do we stop those who are financing the radical madrassa schools?

    Is our current situation such that "the harder we work, the behinder we get"?

    It is pretty clear that the coalition can win in Afghanistan and Iraq in one way or another, but it will be a long, hard slog.

    Internal Memo by Donald Rumsfeld
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/executive/rumsfeld-memo.htm

    He's figured out that there's a big problem. He hasn't yet figured out that it's him.
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Thank God that President Bush is not poll driven like the reprobate who preceded him! :D
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    If we had the news media during WWII that we have today we would have all been goose stepping or bowing to the emperor. In other words we would have lost the war. Also, anyone who complains about the readiness of the military when we went into Iraq should watch the History Channel to see pre WWII troops conducting exercizes with wooden machine guns and jeeps with "tank" painted on the side! :D
     
  12. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    I can't post a link to that Battle of the Bulge statement on the front page here---Its in a book I read---got it in my library---will see if I can find the page and give you a quote or something---please be patient with Blackbird!!!!!
     
  13. Pennsylvania Jim

    Pennsylvania Jim New Member

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    Say, the loss of 50,000 troops (living, breathing humans with hopes and dreams like you and me), and severe damage to our economy, in return for doing just what in Iraq???
     
  14. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    I can imagine what would have happened in WWII if we had better tanks than the M-1 and someone told Patton that the old tanks were "good enough."

    The surgeons would still be removing bits of leather from his colon.

    Rumsfeld is the perfect neocon warrior. No military experience, no understanding of war, and no respect for the guys actually fighting and dying for us.
     
  15. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Actually, Clinton spent a good deal of his popularity when he intervened in the Balkans. But because he had a plan, and made sure that the troops had everything they needed to get it done, it was a success. Initially, the polls were against it, but when he succeeded with very little loss of life, he recovered his popularity.

    Bush, failing to have any coherent plan for Iraq, and with his SOD trying to win it on the cheap, is mired in a low-grade guerrila war with no end in site, and no defined objectives.

    If he doesn't get someone competent on it, the polls are going to be a lot worse later on.
     
  16. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    Galatian---actually, in WW2 the Sherman was considered a "Pea Shooter" compared to the Tiger Panzers of the Germans---and I read somewhere that the Russian T-34 was far superior to all and that the T-34 was an American model that the Americans didn't produce--but gave the model to the Ruskies---if that makes sense!
     
  17. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    You should retract that statement, Galatian. That is simply not true and is simply grossly excessive hyperbole on your part.
     
  18. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    (Barbarian observes that Rumsfeld has no respect for the guys actually fighting and dying for us)

    Let's see... Rumsfeld says that troops are "fungible." They die, they can be replaced, no big deal. He refuses to provide them body armor when we have the capacity to do it, because it's expensive. He actually sent some units to Iraq minus their armored vehicles, because it "cost too much."

    And then he stood before them and lied to them about it.

    Does that sound like "respect" to you?

    Not to me, either.
     
  19. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    My uncle was in the European threater of WW2---it took them 21 days to cross the Atlantic in 1944---zig-zaggin all the way to avoid the Unterseaboot!

    He was a Mess Sergeant in an Ordinance Battilion of the 101st Division---Screamin' Eagles!!

    When the ship landed---it took two weeks for the pots and pans to catch up with the supply of food!! Food---but no pots and pans---no utensils to eat with!!!

    Show me---word for word---where Rumsfield said verbatum----"You men will not receive body armor because its too expensive!"
     
  20. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    "If the United States military and our government are going to put troops in harm’s way, it is essential that they have the best protective equipment available.
    You would think that would be the case, but it’s not always.
    Many soldiers serving in or going to Iraq are buying their own body armor, although the military has pledged that it would be provided before they are put in dangerous situations.
    However, since there are no front lines in Iraq, dangerous situations are virtually everywhere.
    Last October, it was reported that nearly one-quarter of U.S. troops in Iraq don’t have ceramic-plated body armor, which could save their lives if hit by bullets or shrapnel.
    Let’s take a step back for a moment.
    We have been in Iraq since March 2003 and in October, 25 percent of soldiers still didn’t have body armor. What is the problem here?
    The military has claimed in the past that there is a shortage of armor.
    Now they are saying that they are taking care of it, but many disagree.
    Dan Britt of Hamilton, Ohio, recently paid $1,400 for a bullet proof vest for his son, who is serving in Iraq.
    Reliance Armor in Cincinnati makes body armor and they reported that their business has nearly doubled as a result of the shortage.
    A wife in Maine recently learned that her husband spent four months without body armor.
    These are sad stories.
    U.S. Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, said that she knows soldiers who have been told by the military to buy body armor before they ship out to Iraq, rather than risk arriving without it.
    These brave young men and women are putting their lives on the line every day for us and the Iraqi people. Don’t we owe them the very best protection available?
    The Army is saying: Go do your duty. We say to the Army: Do your duty and give any soldier at risk body armor immediately."


    Blackbird, would you feel better if they had the money to buy it and just didn't care?

    There was money to provide a free national healthcare system for Iraqis. There was money to put Halliburton employees up in four start hotels.

    But somehow, no one thought it was worth the money to provide body armor to the troops.

    I think that's a shame. Don't you?
     
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