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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, Aug 7, 2012.
Did any get saved by God that way?
They had to obey the Law.
Not according to Paul.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
They still had to obey what God said and do what the law required.
It was and is always about believing and obeying God.
IF the Law was meant to save ANY under the Old Covenant, then jesus did NOT have to come and die for us, as we would have been able to keep the law and live!
Do not try to say things that I have not said.
Are you saying that the believers in God did not have to do the things in the Law of Moses?
NOT in order to get saved by God, but as to live as a person under the Old Covenant!
Are you finally admitting that the people in those times had to believe AND obey?
NO! Obeying the LAW is the OT equivalent of the Baptist concept of baptism. Unregenerate people can observe the Law in the same way that unregenerate people can be baptized.
I have always understood that the souls of the just, before the work of Redemption was accomplished were detained is called in the Bible Paradise (Luke 23.43); Abraham's Bosum (luke 16,22), and the Prision of the Just (1 Peter 3,19).
DHK/Biblilist any myself have ALWAYS said that a Christian should be obedient to God today under grace, as should have the Jews under Law, but THAT did NOT save anyone!
For ANY sinner who EVER got saved was due to the death of jesus as the sacrificial lamb, and by their faith placed in him and that work...
once saved by God, THEN should be walking in obedience to Him!
No, that is not what you all always have said. When I say we must believe and obey, I am argued against, told I am accursed, and condemned.
DHK even says obeying has NOTHING to do with being saved and staying saved.
God’s grace is that we are saved without works was NOT given UNTIL the New Testament, after Jesus came and shed his blood on the cross.
Being saved without works does NOT mean to be saved without obeying, being saved without works means to be saved without our doing in that we do not have to find an animal and take it to another human to offer it the correct way to God.
Those in the Old Testament times who followed the law or was cut off, THEY DID IT ALL, THEY GOT THE ANIMAL TFFER THE BLOOD, THE PRIEST PERFORMED HIS PART ACCORDING TO THE EXACT RULES AND REGULATIONS.
The people in the Old Testament did all the work, they got the item to be offered, they took it to the priest, a man, to be do his part. The people were responsible for making themselves clean before God, just to worship God. NNE HAS TO DO THOSE WORKS ANYMORE BECAUSE JESUS DID IT FOR US. Jesus’ blood makes us clean, Jesus’ sacrifice is once for all. We did not have any part in what Jesus did.
That does NOT mean we do not have to obey God anymore. We just do not have to obey the ceremonial laws anymore. It does not mean we do not have to confess anymore and repent.
The Jews who believed in God---they still had to do the ceremonial laws just to belong to God, just to worship God!
You are teaching as if it is debatable for believers to have followed the Law of Moses.
Again, the people in the Old Testament did not get saved by the death of Jesus until Jesus died.
Just to say you believe means nothing. If you hear the message that saves, and you believe, but you do not believe you are a sinner, then why would the Father and Jesus choose to make their home with you?
If you hear the message that saves, and you believe, and you do admit you are a sinner, but you do not intend to give up any sins, then why would the Father and Jesus choose to live with you.
If you hear the message that saves, and you believe, you admit you are a sinner, but you will not confess your belief in Jesus, that you will live according to His Way, then why would the Father and Jesus choose you and make their home with you.
The Father and Jesus make their home with those who obey. See John 14:23.
Again, all of us should be obeying the will of God for us to walk in jesus with, to learn and apply his principles BUT
AFTER saved by his grace , by faith alone, and then we can actually walk with him and start obeying Him, to be in ethe power/person of his Spirit!
ALl saved, either OT/NT, by Grace of God, received by faith alone...
Then you might think about speaking up to DHK when he insists we do NOT have to obey after being saved, that it will not cause us to not be saved.
We still have to obey God!
Why do you keep saying Grace saved the Old Testament people? THEY HAD TO DO THE WORKS OF THE LAW; THEY HAD TO GET BLOOD FROM ANIMALS. THEY had to do those things, they had to do those WORKS.
Those offerings/sacrifices by themselves saved NONE, as the blood of animals could NOT remit the sins of the people, but those who had faith in the Coming messiah foretold in them were saved by grace of God!
For the Holyspirit will ONLYcome to dwell in those saved by grace of God, NEVER tothose who are trying to get him by obeying the law!
What do you not get that we have to obey, no matter what the blood of animals could, or could not do---they still had to do what God said to do with the animals and sacrifices!
The people were NOT saved by grace in the Old Testament. They were saved by WORKS, they had to OBSERVE SPECIAL DAYS, they had to follow DIETARY LAWS, they had to be CIRCUMCISED, they had to do EXTERNAL WASHINGS, the priest had to follow the rules and regulations exactly, as well as the people, they had to give SIN OFFERING, BURNT OFFERING, GUILT OFFERING, and FELLOWSHIP OFFERING.
Do you understand now? The Jews had the WORKS of the law to make themselves clean before God. No one has to do those things anymore, because Jesus’ blood makes us clean. Jesus did it for us. We do not have to do all those works anymore.
Again, God method to save has NEVER changed! the Cross of Chrsit basis of salvation, faith in the promises of God concerning jesus and seen in the sacrificial system saved OT believers, faith in the messiah looking back saves us today!
I just want to answer the question the thread asks. My answer is no. People were not saved by obeying the law but by faith. However, that faith lead them to obey the law as they could.
You only repeat what your teachers taught you, without considering what the Word says.
You keep pretending that all the Jews understood exactly whom Jesus was and what he was going to do. You keep teaching that they were saved by Jesus before Jesus even came and died. Even though the Bible says, it was a mystery!
The Jews thought the Messiah was going to be an earthly King with a physical rule, restoring earthly Israel.
You keep teaching that the Jews were saved by faith by grace in Jesus by looking ahead, but if they were saved by grace, then why did they still have the works of the law like animal sacrifices!
the Bible says that ALL who were credited by god as being 'rightous" was due to NOT observing the law/feasts/sacrifices etc, but all of that pointed towards the Messiah promised to come by god...
As jesus said to the jews, Abraham saw his day and rejoiced!
For Abraham, Moses, Isaiah etc were ALl saved by them having faith in that promise of god, able to see yeshua foretold in the sacrifies/feasts etc...
God always had the Cross in his mind, and he was able to "back credit" to the OT saved that grace, and applied it to those of us in the new Covenant also!