Featured Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

Again, I would suggest that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is critical to understanding what the New Birth is.

We are made new through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, cleansing being a result of that process. We are given life at that time, because He Who is Life takes up residence in us.

We are new creatures because we are something we were not before.

Consider again:


Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


God is the reason we are able to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments. Contrast that with the concept of our obeying God because we are new creatures.

Hope that is understandable, lol.


God bless.

 

Yes. That is the point, really: we were sinners, in need of cleansing from sin, and that is accomplished, not by a physical baptism that puts away the filth of the flesh (washes the outside of the cup, lol), but a baptism (washing) that cleanses by removing sin.

Remember that Baptism is an identification with something or someone. John's Baptism identified those baptized with John and repentance, and this was a picture of a sinning Judaizer/Israelite remorseful for their failure to keep the Covenant Relationship with God. That is the ultimate purpose for John's preaching and baptizing.

That relationship ultimately pictured the Relationship that would be created through identification and cleansing through the Baptism Christ would bring, which would not just be an external washing as found within the Law, but an internal and spiritual cleansing that in reality, as opposed to the temporary nature of remission of sins found in the Law...would take away sins.

The identification we have is with God in an internal and spiritual reality not found in the Law. The washing includes cleansing by the Word, which is intrinsic to salvation itself. The Comforter convicts the sinner by reason of the enlightening the natural mind to the reality of the Gospel (we are sinners, Christ is righteous, we will be judged/He has taken that judgment upon Himself). The cleansing that results from the eternal indwelling results from our union with God, whereby we partake of a nature (His) that we were previously excluded from.

So we don't make the cleansing that results from the Word of God (which continues after we are saved) exclusive from the indwelling of God, but it is the entire process by which we receive cleansing, and continue to do so. We continue being cleansed after salvation, this a direct result of our relationship, but that does not negate that in regards to the penalty of sin we have been cleansed.

There are two sanctifications taught in Scripture, progressive and positional. Progressive is in regards to our daily conversation, and positional in regards to our standing, our position from an eternal perspective, as seen here:



1 Corinthians 6:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Matthew 3:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


Just as He states, it pertains to righteousness in relation to the Covenant of Law.

Keep in mind that the Messiah was distinctly of Israel, and Christ Himself said "I am come only to the Lost Sheep of Israel." John was a Prophet of God, and Christ not only validates John's Ministry, but John Ministry validates Christ:


16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


I do not view this as equal to what takes place in a believer that is born again, because though a Man, Christ was God. I do not see Him at this time receiving the Spirit of God, as that would imply Christ was a natural man prior to that, and that is not the case.

So the accomplishment here is a validation of the Messiah and an identification with the Covenant of Law. Christ was "made under the Law," and it was critical that God manifest in flesh not be found in violation of the very Covenant He gave to His People.

Again, we look at identification, and the baptism of suffering would identify Christ with Man and the very penalty, death, of Man in relation to sins.

They too would die, not for their sins, but put to death because of their ministry.

It is not equated to Christ's Death, as Christ alone accomplished Atonement for sin. But, they too would suffer for the Kingdom of God.

The "cup" Christ would drink from is not equated to the cup the disciples (who had come asking to sit one on each side of His Throne), but they too would suffer for the cause of redemption. It was not salvific in the eternal sense, but was salvific in the temporal sense, just as all evangelistic efforts are. While evangelists do not "save" people, they are used of God in that process.

Only if one is not saved.

We could liken His water Baptism to Christian Baptism in the sense that these are pictures of spiritual truths, and we could liken it to the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

But, this event was within the framework of the Law, and is actually an"Old Testament" event, and should not be equated to that which is found within the framework of the New Covenant.

All shadow, parable, and prophecy in Scripture always points to the ultimate fulfillment. Christ being Baptized by John was by no means a fulfillment, but an illustration.

Apparently the righteousness of Christ could be questioned had He not been Baptized, and perhaps it would have come across as a rejection of the Covenant of Law, and Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly.

If I had to sum the chapter up it would be "We do not have our eyes on this life in which we all perish, but to that ultimate destiny that awaits us."

In regards to the former half of the statement, I don't think this applies to everyone, but I do think there are still people who give up their lives, thus suffer for the Kingdom of God. While it might not always be the quick execution all the time (and that goes on today as well, as persecution is prevalent in certain countries, primarily Muslim), there are people who give their lives over to God, and in doing so...lose them.

So I would answer the question no, not for every believer.

In regards to the latter half...

...I would say absolutely not.

We receive the very Life of God when we are saved, and this due to the Eternal Indwelling of the Eternal God. Eternal Life is not a substance, it the Person of God. When we are reconciled to God and that union restored (the renewing of the Holy Ghost), we have eternal life.

This is not due to our doing...anything.

The only part men take in salvation is to be obedient to the Gospel. The Comforter enlightens the natural man and convicts concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment, and man then responds. That ministry, I believe, is not always instantaneous in salvation, as some, like myself, may be under that convicting ministry longer than others. Many will ultimately sear their conscience to that ministry, and I believe God has a line that, when crossed, ends that ministry in that individual's life.

While we can say our "old man is crucified with Him," that does not mean we were on the Cross of Christ, as this implies we supplemented that Work, and we did not.

Salvation is a free gift, not something that requires our participation, apart from yielding to the truth and coming under obedience to that truth.

Great questions, Percho, hope this helps.


God bless.

 

We see John the Baptist prophecy of Christ, Who at the time had not "come after John," which places the particular baptizing Christ would do clearly in the future from John's declaration...


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


I wanted to point out the Baptisms presented by John, which he states Christ would accomplish, because I see it as important to an understanding of the New Birth.

John is preaching about repentance and judgment. So in view are two issues which contrast, repentance (and this within the framework of the Law), and judgment. John states that judgment is at hand:


Matthew 3:7-10

King James Version (KJV)

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


John warns them not to look to heritage (v.9) for reprieve. He focuses on their need for repentance, which without...will result in judgment.

The "axe" is ready to fall. His charge to the Pharisees (and other Jews Mark 1) is to show in their lives they have truly repented, as opposed to a public profession which he knows is illegitimate based on their lives.

Now back to the key text:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


First note that something is coming that is greater than what John is doing.

Now we look at what is contrasted, which is the Baptisms Christ will perform:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


In view are two baptism the Baptizer will effect: salvation (Baptism with the Holy Ghost), and judgment (baptism with fire).

And those are the only two Baptisms associated with Christ on an eternal level in regards to repentance. One will either repent and be Baptized with the Holy Ghost, or not, and receive eternal judgment.


God bless.

 

We keep in mind that the thief's arrival in Paradise (1) takes place after Christ's death, (2) does not necessitate that he was in Heaven that day, but Paradise (which is a debatable issue, though I think Hebrews makes it clear men did not go into the Holiest of All until after Christ's death), and most importantly, (3)...the New Birth is something that occurs when men are physically alive, not after they are dead (meaning it takes place before death, this does not preclude those of faith who had previously died being made perfect at that time, which is what occurred to the thief).


God bless.

 

The Atonement of Christ is the complete package, which removes the penalty of sin through Christ's death, allowing relationship between God and man to be Reconciled, so we do not separate the aspects of Redemption through Christ in that manner.

Regeneration is the result of the indwelling, in my view, meaning that we are new creatures because we become, when we are reconciled to God, something which we were not before: alive.

That life, eternal life, is not a substance poured into or applied to a believer from a positional perspective, as the declaration of righteousness through faith was to the Old Testament Saint, but is the literal Eternal Life which is the Nature of God. We have Eternal Life because He Who is Eternal dwells in us.

When we are saved by the washing of regeneration, in view is a clear statement of Eternal Security. If one is not regenerated they are not saved. We do not separate the cleansing which takes place through salvation and make that cleansing exclusively one aspect or another, but view Eternal Redemption as the complete package effected by God.

I have addressed the issue of the distinction between atonement and redemption in the thread "The Redemption of Israel," where this distinction is denied, but will help us to understand the New Birth in a New Covenant context, if you care to look at it.


God bless.

 

Then you will need to reconcile what you think with what Scripture teaches, for starters, here...


Hebrews 9:11-15

King James Version (KJV)

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Only the Blood of Christ can eternally redeem, all Old Testament Saints offered up only vicarious animal death for remission of sins.

Only the Bread of Heaven can bestow Eternal Life, no Old Testament Saint received the Bread until He came down from Heaven.

And only Christ is the Finisher of our faith, no Old Testament Saint died without being in need of perfection.

We see them here:


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



If we equate the redemption of the Old Testament Saint then we must neglect, or worse, negate that which is taught in numerous places which draw a clear distinction between redemption through the Law (the God ordained method of atonement which precedes the coming of Christ) and Eternal Redemption only accomplished through the offering of Himself.

Not one of even Christ's closest disciples were made privy to the Mystery of the Gospel prior to Pentecost. While we might try to see new birth immediately after the Cross, New Birth is dependent upon belief in Christ's death and resurrection, and the disciples cannot be found to be said to believe, but are in fact pointed out as unbelievers until, according to the Promise of God, and the teaching of Christ, they are Baptized with the Holy Spirit, which is when every believer is eternally indwelt by God through the Reconciliatory Work of Christ. This involved the necessity of the Comforter being sent...after He returned to Heaven.

Show me how these...


Luke 24:6-11

King James Version (KJV)

6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

8 And they remembered his words,

9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.


Mark 16:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.





...are born again believers who trust in Christ's death and His Resurrection.

It is not our place to think what Scripture means, but to know. And we know that the disciples were not trusting in Christ at that point, but in their hearts were just as scattered in their hearts as the Lord said they would be when He was taken.

We cannot see Peter's vehement denial of Christ as the actions of one abiding in Christ, but the actions of an unbeliever seeking to save his physical life. This is why Peter rebukes the Lord when the Lord gives them the Gospel:


Matthew 16:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



The New Birth is not possible for Christ rejecters, and when Christ rebukes the disciples for unbelief, we can safely know that they were not...believers according to New Covenant standard, but Old Testament Saints in need of the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel which is revealed by the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven.

We see on the Day of Ascension itself that the disciples had not yet received this promise:


Acts 1:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



God bless.

 

Christ also told the disciples to...




Mark 16:12-16

King James Version (KJV)

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



...but that does not negate the fact that this ministry would occur after they had been Baptized with the Holy Ghost:


Acts 1:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



The undeniable truth is that a command was given that was not capable of being fulfilled at that time.

Another example would be the command to "Abide in Me," which did not mean they would abide at that time, and we see they did not, and in fact were scattered, Peter going so far as to deny he even knew Christ.

The Lord's teaching in John 3 simply reiterates the teaching of the Prophecy and Promise of God. Nicodemus clearly has a carnal understanding in that he asks how a man can return to his mother's womb and, physically, be born again. The Question "Art thou a/the Teacher of Israel and you do not understand these things" can be viewed as "Why are you thinking physically when you should know that the promise of God for conversion from your state of unbelief (which is the state Israel was in, i.e., "I am come only to the Lost Sheep of Israel) is an internal and spiritual work of God involving the heart, spirit, and indwelling of God?"

And we consider that the Kingdom in view from Nicodemus would not have been the Kingdom we understand, but the same Kingdom all of Israel awaited, which is Restored Israel. We see the disciples, after being told "You will be Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence," amazingly ask, "Wilt thou restore the Kingdom to Israel at this time?"

It shows the lack of understanding on the parts of not just Nicodemus, but all men prior to the Holy Ghost being sent from Heaven. That does not mean they were not Elect, it simply places them in the same understanding that fits within the framework of Progressive Revelation.

And that is all the time I have, and just wanted to ask if anyone else is having trouble with the sizing when posting? Mine is not working this morning for some reason.


God bless.