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Featured Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jedi Knight, Apr 10, 2013.

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  1. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    I study the Bible too but it doesn't make me a strict five pointer. Why the insult? I was not being insulting to you. I was just trying to understand where you were coming from. Now I understand why believe the way you do. Carry on!
     
  2. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    Wasn't trying to insult ....just making a POINT I'm not A 5 pointer just because I study. It was a rhetorical question with "no"as the answer. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
     
    #82 Jedi Knight, Apr 21, 2013
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  3. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    the OT believers experienced the new birth and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When Nicodemus was bewildered about Jesus' demand for new birth by the Spirit, Jesus responded (John 3:10), "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?" In other words, I'm not teaching or requiring anything new. Any Israelite who has ever been saved had to be born again by God's Spirit. Otherwise how would they ever overcome their natural hostility to God? How could they have ever submitted to God's law and pleased him—as many did, like Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and Rahab and Ruth and Deborah and David?

    Paul says in Romans 8:7–9, "The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed, it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God really dwells in you." There are two groups of humans: those in the flesh (born of the flesh) and those in the Spirit (born again of the Spirit). Those in the flesh are devoid of the Spirit and cannot submit to God's law or please God. Those in the Spirit are indwelt by the Spirit and are enabled by him to fulfill the just requirement of the law.

    This means that all the saints of the OT who trusted God and followed his ways in the obedience of faith were born again by the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit. For example, Numbers 14:24 says of Caleb, "My servant Caleb, because he has a different Spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into this land." And Numbers 27: 18 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him.'" The OT believers were saved the same way we are: they were born of the Spirit, they trusted in God's promises, and they followed his commandments in the obedience of faith.
    John Piper http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...evers-experienced-the-spirit-before-pentecost :wavey:
     
  4. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    opps double post
     
  5. michael-acts17:11

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    Seriously? We are the promised seed of Abraham. The promises were fulfilled in Christ. And no, there was no justification before the New Covenant. NO ONE was justified in the eyes of God without the shed blood of Christ.
     
  6. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Jedi Knight,

    I hope you understand the arguments that I was making. I don't disagree with the concept of "born again" in the Old Testament Saints. It's that particular term I take umbrage with.

    This is why I've stated that there is evidence of conversion in the Old Testament Saints, but the term "born again" is more a New Covenant term.

    If it is to be explained anachronistically, that's fine--especially because it helps understanding. However, making arguments that don't serve the text properly are problematic, in my opinion. We should be taking the text as it is. Explaining Old Testament conversion in New Testament "born again" language is fine as long as it is explained that the text of the Old Testament didn't label it "born again."

    The Archangel
     
  7. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, seriously.

    OK. What, then, does that mean?

    So, again, what do you do with Abraham's faith being counted as righteousness? Do you, then, call Paul--and God Himself, for that matter--a liar?

    The Archangel
     
  8. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    The Lord had no problem doing so.
     
  9. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Now you're just being silly.

    To my knowledge, there is no "conversion" in the Old Testament that is labeled "being born again." ...unless you're intending to call John Piper "Lord," which he wouldn't stand for, and not even I would call him. (And, I don't think you intend to do so).

    Again, the issue is how we handle scripture. Were the Old Testament authors--especially those Piper references--intending to describe "being born again" according to the New Testament language? No, of course not. Were they describing a Spirit-wrought conversion where God Himself transformed rebellious sinners into sons and daughters in His kingdom? Absolutely.

    It is a matter of asking "what does the text say" and "what does the author mean to convey?"

    The Archangel
     
    #89 The Archangel, Apr 21, 2013
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  10. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    Being silly? Thanks Arch! Anyways Jesus said Born Again to describe an OT reality and didn't get all....opps that word wasn't used before. Rather he said "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?" Obviously Nick was stumped as yourself on the word.
     
  11. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    The "attack" of calling me stumped is uncalled for. I am not stumped, thank you very much.

    And, Jesus was describing the promised reality of the New Covenant that was spoken of in Ezekiel--and it was spoken of there, not in the present or past tense, but the future tense.

    It's ridiculous that I should have to put up with such drivel from you, when I've been nothing but courteous.

    The Archangel
     
  12. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    I thought the same......till you got all "silly" on me.
     
  13. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Whatever....
     
  14. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    I still like your name though. :wavey:
     
  15. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Moses was born again by the enduring word of God that came from a burning bush, we are born again by the words of God. Abraham by the word of God by angel's. The prophets were being born again by the words of those being born again by the words of them.

    It is the word of God that changes us.

    We are not concerned as David of losing the Holy Spirit that those of the old testament because it is a permanent dwelling for us.

    Luke 16 :
    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

    30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

    31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
     
  16. michael-acts17:11

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    His faith was counted as righteousness, but not as the imputed, redeeming, justifying, cleansing righteousness of Christ; without which there is no salvation/eternal remission of sins. Without the imputed righteousness of Christ & remission of sins, NO ONE can be in God's presence.
     
    #96 michael-acts17:11, Apr 22, 2013
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  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    isn't the OT truth concernning the HS though be that he did NOT dwell in the "layperson" of israel, but that he would come upon those appointed to a specific task/role/position, such as prophets/priests/kings?

    He also 'came upon" judges like Samson, but departed?


    And if the indwelling of the HS was to be for israel as it is now in the church age, why did the prophets points that to a future time, when the law would be written upon hearts?

    So somehow God was able to not hold sins of his own against them under Old coveant, but he did not 'save them" in the sense of having thre HS in them, so were NOT part of the Bride of christ, church?
     
  18. beameup

    beameup Member

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    The only differentiation that I would make is that the Gentile believers (with a "remnant" of Jews) are sealed, so the Spirit cannot "depart".

    And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30
    This would indicate to me that prior to the Gentile believers, Jews could grieve the H.S. and he would depart.
    I believe that this condition will return to the Jewish believers during the Tribulation - "he that endureth unto the end".
     
    #98 beameup, Apr 23, 2013
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    what about the gentile believers in end times? same situation with the Holy spirit?
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    jesus would have been pointing out to him the references of the HS to come when messaih came, for THEN would the HS be poured upon house of usrael, and that there would be a new covenant , where the law written upon hearts... NOT saying that experience was happening already in OT times!
     
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