Were Old Testament Saints Born Again?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jedi Knight, May 11, 2013.

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Were Old Testament Saints Born Again?

  1. Yes

    11 vote(s)
    64.7%
  2. No

    4 vote(s)
    23.5%
  3. Not sure

    2 vote(s)
    11.8%
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  1. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight
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    Some have sharp difference on this....and that's ok. Were Old Testament Saints Born Again or not?
     
  2. Jedi Knight

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    My convition is summed up well by John Piper. OT believers experienced the new birth and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When Nicodemus was bewildered about Jesus' demand for new birth by the Spirit, Jesus responded (John 3:10), "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?" In other words, I'm not teaching or requiring anything new. Any Israelite who has ever been saved had to be born again by God's Spirit. Otherwise how would they ever overcome their natural hostility to God? How could they have ever submitted to God's law and pleased him—as many did, like Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and Rahab and Ruth and Deborah and David?

    Paul says in Romans 8:7–9, "The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed, it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God really dwells in you." There are two groups of humans: those in the flesh (born of the flesh) and those in the Spirit (born again of the Spirit). Those in the flesh are devoid of the Spirit and cannot submit to God's law or please God. Those in the Spirit are indwelt by the Spirit and are enabled by him to fulfill the just requirement of the law.

    This means that all the saints of the OT who trusted God and followed his ways in the obedience of faith were born again by the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit. For example, Numbers 14:24 says of Caleb, "My servant Caleb, because he has a different Spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into this land." And Numbers 27: 18 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him.'" The OT believers were saved the same way we are: they were born of the Spirit, they trusted in God's promises, and they followed his commandments in the obedience of faith. John Piper http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-...fore-pentecost
     
  3. jbh28

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    Of course they were, Jesus said that "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    So unless one wants to teach that all old testament people went to hell, then they were born again.

    Here's an interesting article.
    http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y2004/04B2.html
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Hi guys, I have only read a few pages of this thread and there looks to be a division on this issue, but I will say I am glad to see people discussing it. I have started this topic on a number of forums only to see it fizzle out due to either disinterest or an unwillingness to broach a subject which will, without doubt, have great impact on the theology one holds.

    My two cents: no, men were not born again before Pentecost.

    A beginning of the reason I hold this view can be found here:



    Ezekiel 36:21-27

    King James Version (KJV)


    21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

    22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

    23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



    When promise of the New Covenant was given we see a clear parallel to the New Birth, the most important aspect found in v.27, God giving us His Spirit.

    So as not to get too lengthy I will submit one more passage to consider, in relation to the Promise:



    Acts 1

    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.



    The Lord taught specifically about the Promise in John 14-16, that is, concerning the Comforter (the same Greek word translated in 1 John 2:1 as "Advocate" (paraklētos)).

    If they are still waiting, it is obvious they have not at this point received Him.


    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


    They (the Disciples) have not been baptized with the Holy Ghost yet (see Matthew 3:11-12 to see this Baptism contrasted with the only other option available to man...judgment).


    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


    The Disciples are aware of the Kingdom promised by God, and here they do not see it as having been fulfilled.

    Nor does the Lord:


    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


    The Holy Spirit, the Comforter, preached of by the Lord (i.e. John 16:7-13 (see also Acts 1:4 again))...has not come. He did come on the Day of Pentecost, though, and I think most would agree with that.

    While it is true that the Spirit of God would indwell and empower Old Testament Saints, we understand that if the indwelling of God promised by God had been in place before Pentecost, the Promise of the Father being fulfilled after the Ascension of Christ seems to make it less of a promise rather than a continuation of a previous ministry of God in the lives of men.


    God bless.
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    This is true, the Lord was not teaching anything new: the promise of the New Covenant and associated blessings had long since been given, however, the fulfillment of those, just as in the case of Messiah, had not been fulfilled at the time the prophecy is given.



    An interesting question, though it leaves out an important factor surrounding Christ's ministry: Atonement.

    Consider the disciples, who for three years ministered to Israel under the Lord. We would not deny that when they cast out demons, healed, and preached...they did so, not of their own power, but through the power of God ministering through them.

    But...they had not received the Spirit of God, which Paul speaks of here:



    Romans 8:9

    King James Version (KJV)

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


    Paul makes it clear that those not indwelled by the Spirit of God, also called the Spirit of Christ...they do not belong to God.

    Do we suppose that we can deny that the disciples belonged to Christ? Of course not, they were given unto Him. So we see there is a difference in the ministry of the Holy Spirit toward men before Pentecost and after.

    Peter's "hostility" can be seen in his denial of Christ, and this after three years under the Lord. Three years when he preached, healed, cast out demons, even walked upon water. Yet at the appointed time, he betrays the Lord, even as the Lord said he would.


    There is no question the Spirit of God ministered to men, this goes without saying, however, nowhere do we see that these men and women were born again.

    Can the born again believer echo David's prayer?



    Psalm 51:7-11

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.


    8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

    9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.[/SIZE]

    10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

    11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.



    As born again believers, are we forgiven our sins in Christ? Do we fear that God will cast us from His presence? That, as in the case of King Saul, He will take His Holy Spirit from us?



    First let us look at this in it's entirety:



    Romans 8:7-9

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



    Paul distinguishes between those that are born of the flesh and those that are indwelled by God. While we might say "Being indwelled by God does not mean being born again," what we cannot say is one can be born again and not have the Spirit of God. This produces a theology of subsequence which I for one hold to be in error.



    I agree, so what we should conclude is that since the Spirit of God was not given until Pentecost, the disciples were not born again.

    Right?

    Would this not explain why Peter could deny the Lord? Forsake the ministry of preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom and...go "a fishing?"



    There is, again, no question of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men before the Cross and Pentecost. However, before the Cross, Atonement had not come, and before Pentecost, the Comforter had not come. This is clear in the pages of scripture.



    Titus 3:5

    King James Version (KJV)

    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



    We are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.

    This applies to all men, before and after the Cross. Before, men were justified through their faith, yet their atonement awaited the perfect sacrifice of Christ.



    Hebrews 10:10-14

    King James Version (KJV)


    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



    No man was made complete before Christ died on the Cross, for it is His offering of Himself that brought about that completion. The writer of Hebrews makes this clear after taking the time to list those of faith before the Cross, and he concludes in saying...



    Hebrews 11:39-40

    King James Version (KJV)

    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



    While they obtained a good report, not one of them...received the promise.

    Not one.

    Christ spoke of the Promise of the Father, and just a few days before Pentecost He makes it clear that the Promise will come "not many days hence (Acts 1).

    Salvation is made complete through Christ alone, and those that believe on Him receive that which those of Hebrews 11 did not.

    God bless.
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Something to consider is the Kingdom which Israel awaited.

    Should we think that Nicodemus was privy to the Mystery of Christ? Certainly he should have understood the Promise of God to Israel concerning the New Covenant. He should have known that the day was coming in which the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel was going to come...because God had promised this to Israel.

    Using the first appearance of "in the kingdom" as spoken by Christ, let us consider a few things:



    Matthew 5:19

    King James Version (KJV)

    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



    Is the Lord speaking of the Most Holy? Heaven itself? Shall we think that in Heaven there will be those that "break the commandments" of God? Shall there be men in Heaven who teach other men to do so?


    Nicodemus, like most in his day, awaited the Restoration of Israel. Not even the disciples can be seen to understand the events which were taking place and would soon take place:



    Acts 1:4-6

    King James Version (KJV)


    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?



    It would seem that after three years of ministering under the Lord, if the Restored Kingdom of Israel had been scrapped, the disciples would have come to understand this. Thus they ask, and thus answers the Lord:


    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


    It seems there is a time and a season when God will restore the kingdom unto Israel. The Lord's encounter with Nicodemus, as well as His teaching concerning the Kingdom of God, becomes more clear, I believe, if we keep in mind the promises of God to Israel.


    Nicodemus, as a teacher, should have understood the prophecy, which would be accomplished by God alone, and for His holy Name's sake. Men could not cleanse themselves, remove their stony hearts, give themselves hearts of flesh, a new spirit, nor could they place God's Spirit within them.

    Nicodemus should have immediately thought of the promises of God toward Israel. One commentator had an interesting note, likening Nicodemus' statement of entering again the womb to "starting all over." But I think Nicodemus' statement illustrates the great truth the Lord conveys in distinguishing from physical birth and spiritual. Moses is said by a member in a previous post to have been born again, yet the Lord states:




    John 3:13-15

    King James Version (KJV)


    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.



    We would not ascribe the salvific value of the Cross of Christ to the brazen serpent, though the Lord uses it to illustrate (as well as pre-figure) His work on the Cross. His work would lead to Eternal Life, yet those in the wilderness...died.




    John 6:49-51

    King James Version (KJV)


    49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

    50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.



    We have Eternal Life, not through works of righteousness we have done, but because God is in us. We have His Life.



    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.



    The flesh and the blood of Christ had not yet been offered up, showing a future view given. The Bread of Heaven came down to give life, and apart from Him one has...no life.






    John 1:10-13

    King James Version (KJV)


    10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



    Again we see that this speaks of the time...after the Lord came.

    They are not born of blood, the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but born of God.

    Only those that received Christ.

    In Luke 16 the Lord does not say Lazarus is taken to Heaven, nor is he found in a place of torment. The view that the New Birth came about after Pentecost does not necessitate a belief that all went to Hell.

    To sheol, or hades, perhaps, but not into everlasting punishment, which is properly the Lake of Fire. It is my view that before Atonement was Complete, men did not come into the presence of Holy God, as the writer indicates here:



    Hebrews 10:18-20

    King James Version (KJV)


    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

    20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;



    Until Christ, through His death, opened the way into the Holiest, men were confined to coming into God's presence through shadow, that is...




    Hebrews 9:8-9

    King James Version (KJV)


    8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

    9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;



    The picture of the True could not make men complete. Every saint of God mentioned in Hebrews 11 awaited the completion that could only be accomplished by Christ.

    God bless.
     
  7. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Always hearing but never understanding.

    We can animate puppets, but it does not make them alive.

    The Holy Spirit used men, burning bush, a worm, but it does not make them alive.
    They did not receive for keeps the Holy Spirit , because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    Psalm 51:11
    Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

    John 7:39
    By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    Acts 19
    Paul in Ephesus

    19 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

    They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

    3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

    “John’s baptism,” they replied.

    4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.


    You do not have to receive the Holy Spirit to believe, but His word.

    We are not to trust our minds the mind that is set on the flesh, set on our own understanding. We are to set our mind on His word, the words of life. Paul was not given men an excuse, but telling them not to trust in their mind set on the flesh.

    Our life and the Spirit is in His word until we receive the Holy Spirit a permanent dwelling, both came from above.
     
    #7 psalms109:31, May 12, 2013
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  8. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight
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    They were not saved a second time at Pentecost but power of the Holy Spirit came UPON them. When Jesus was Baptized were did the spirit go......... Luke 3:22 UPON Him. They were not born again just becausae they WAITED UPON the Lord. Two totally different things. What does scripture say about those who WAIT UPON the Lord?
     
    #8 Jedi Knight, May 12, 2013
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  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    I don't think too many will disagree concerning the fact that the Holy Spirit ministered in the lives of men prior to Pentecost, but, we can say that by the word of the Lord the Comforter's ministry beginning with Pentecost is not only unique to this age, this ministry had a beginning after His Ascension.

    What we need to look at is the whether the New Birth is combined with the indwelling of God in the believer and whether it is at this point those born again receive Eternal Life. If this is not the case, then we are forced to consider that men can be born again but not receive Eternal Life or the indwelling of God.

    And I don't believe that for a minute.

    But as I said, this is a great topic of discussion. For those that believe that men were born again before the Cross and Pentecost (and you are in very good company with some of the best Theologians in the Body) I would ask for an explanation of what it means to be born again and that Old Testament examples be given.

    I would also pose the question: did men receive Eternal Life before the Lord came, contrary to His teaching that He came for that very purpose.

    God bless.
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Just another thought to consider concerning the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men, even those that have yet to be saved/born again:



    Hebrews 6:4-5

    King James Version (KJV)


    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


    Thought by many (and usually those that teach this passage as referring to "losing salvation") to be speaking about believers specifically, here I believe we see the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the lives...of all men. There is a direct link to those that experienced both the ministry of Christ as well as the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the beginning of the Church era, however, we should keep in mind that not one man or woman will come to saving faith and be born again apart from the ministry of the Spirit of God in their lives.

    The Lord describes this ministry here:



    John 16:7-11

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.



    Lest men think they of their own abilities or efforts came to a right understanding of sin, righteousness, and judgment, the Lord makes a clear statement that another Comforter would be instrumental in the process by which men reach that point where they will receive Christ or reject Him.

    Which causes us to consider those, like those warned by the writer of Hebrews, who do come to an understanding through the ministry of the Holy Spirit and then reject Him, whether they have been involved in Churchianity or not.

    As I said before, this is a topic that reaches further than many might think. Perhaps a thorough discussion might help all of us to carefully consider an issue which, as I have said, can have great impact on a number of issues.

    God bless.
     
  11. convicted1

    convicted1
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    Brother Darrell.....amen.... :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  12. psalms109:31

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    When I was young it was the word of God that helped me through my life being a loner. I loved God since i was 8 and God introduced me to His Son when i was 11. God through Jesus Christ was my friend. I read the Holy Bible many times and commentaries and I could not understand the scripture, but I trusted Christ that I was taught to do by His word.

    It wasn't until I was in my late 20 and I lost everything that in tears reading the Gospel that God opened my eyes through Jesus Christ and received the Holy Spirit and understood all that Christ did for me.

    I don't need men to tell me how I was saved I experienced it my self.

    It all started with His word that indwelled me with Spirit and life.
     
    #12 psalms109:31, May 13, 2013
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  13. convicted1

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    Could it be that the Lord did not hold their sins against them, but had remited them unto the cross, but had not yet come to indwell the saved until pentacost?

    I believe that all there were saved persons from before coming of chrsit, could it be that he forbeared/held not their sins commited by the Cross to come, ina fashion like can use grace to save Children/infents by not personally holding sins against them, yet them not being 'born again' yet?
     
  15. percho

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    So in light of all you have said; Does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit birth, we corruptible, mortal men, into the kingdom of God or does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit conceive we corruptible, mortal men, to be birthed incorruptible and immortal into the kingdom of God?

    Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 1:14
    Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.2 Cor 5:5

    Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. 1 Cor 6:18-20 --- The purchased possession is the body which must be born of the spirit (incorruptible and immortal) to see the kingdom of God.

    It is the change of the body that has to be made to be born again. In my opinion.

    But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1 Cor 1:30 ---- by the resurrection from the dead
     
    #15 percho, May 13, 2013
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  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    I think that is the case. The Covenant of Law presented in shadow, in parable, the Atonement that would be produced through the sinless Son of God. While the Mystery of Christ was not made known until after Pentecost and the ministry of the Comforter had begun, obedience to God in relation to this Covenant was not mandated for no purpose. They understood sacrifice for sin, and while it was not until the Comforter made this understandable to man, their faith resulted in obedience through faith in God and a willingness to obey.

    Consider:

    1 Corinthians 2:7-11

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.



    In v.9 we see this quotation applied to Christ. If those that ultimately contributed to the death of Christ had known this mystery, that is, what Christ would accomplish through His death and Resurrection, they would not have crucified Him, but, I believe, they and Satan would have assigned a security detail to make sure He would not even dash His foot against a stone.


    Romans 16:25

    King James Version (KJV)

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,



    If we carefully consider the Disciples in the Gospels, it becomes clear that they do not understand the Mystery of Christ, though it was not given unto them to understand at that point. Christ told them directly that He would die, Peter going so far as to say "This will never happen to you," which statement earned him a severe rebuke from the Lord.

    Paul tells us this mystery was kept secret since the world began.

    Concerning those given unto the Lord, we see that He kept them and none were lost:

    John 17:12

    King James Version (KJV)

    12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.



    They were kept...by the Lord. However, two important things are clear in scripture: 1) the Lord said He must leave that the Comforter come; 2) the disciples had not received the Spirit of God, and this is clear in Acts 1, where the Lord tells them the Promise of the Father would come, and they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost:



    Acts 1

    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



    Even at this point the disciples did not understand fully that which the Lord had done. But, not many days hence...they would.


    I do as well. Just as the disciples were kept by Christ before the Cross, even so those that shall be heirs of salvation are as well. The disciples had not received the Comforter at that point but we can see that the ministry of Christ did have impact on their lives:


    John 15

    King James Version (KJV)

    3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.





    Ephesians 5:25-26

    King James Version (KJV)


    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,




    Romans 10:17

    King James Version (KJV)


    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



    Faith in Christ arises through the word, and specifically the word introduced to the heart of man by the Holy Spirit, as Paul teaches that the natural man cannot understand the things of God.

    I would suggest that prior to the Cross and Pentecost the specific nature of the ministry of Christ was not revealed, even to His closest disciples. The cleansing which the word of God has always produced did not begin after Pentecost, however, it was not until God made known to man through the ministry of the Comforter the mystery of Christ that it became understood. We can look into the Law and clearly see Christ, far more clearly than the Old Testament Saints. But they were still assured of salvation though their faith did not have the revealed focus of the Son of God dying on behalf of man, to take upon Himself our penalty for sin.



    I believe it was exactly that.


    Galatians 3:6

    King James Version (KJV)


    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.



    But Abraham could not place his faith in the Risen Lord.

    As posted previously, many Old Testament Saints received "a good report." However, they were not made perfect, and the importance of that cannot be underestimated.

    The Law and the sacrifices of Law could not make perfect, or complete, only Christ fulfilling that which the Law only pictured could. Abraham had faith in God, but you and I can place our faith in the completed work of Christ, Who has died in our place that we might have life. That life, Eternal Life, is not just that we will live forever, but because God is in us, His Life is in us.

    The saints of old can be seen to have faith, and in fact can be seen to have been moved by the Spirit of God, Who worked through them, however, concerning the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we are told, as Percho quotes in the previous post, that He is the earnest of our inheritance. We see King Saul as an example of one through whom the Spirit of God worked through yet the Spirit of God departed from him. There is no indication of this scripture concerning those born again, and in fact, we are told the exact opposite, and are sure He will never leave nor forsake us.

    It is my belief as well that God makes provision for those that cannot fully comprehend sin, righteousness, and judgment. This would include children and those mentally challenged. God is righteous and will not demand something that He has not also made clear to an individual. This can be seen in those before the Cross, who did not understand the Mystery of Christ, and we have for an example the disciples themselves. If anyone should have understood that Christ would die for the sins of man, it should have been Peter. John the Baptist is another example of the Holy Spirit ministering through men, as he proclaimed, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world." Powerful statement, yet, while in prison, Joh sends his own disciples to ask of Christ...


    Matthew 11

    King James Version (KJV)


    2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

    3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?



    The Lord said of John...


    Matthew 11:11

    King James Version (KJV)

    11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.



    John was not in the Kingdom of Heaven? Was John "saved?" He was "saved" in the sense that he belonged to God, yet, even being the second to last Old Testament Prophet, the revelation of the Mystery of Christ had not been made known to John. He inquired if Christ was in fact the Messiah. This indicates, I believe, or illustrates I should say, the ministry of the Holy Spirit in men, where they prophesy according to the Spirit yet have not full understanding revealed to them. Showing that the ministry of the Spirit of God did not begin with Pentecost, however, I think that given the revelation of the Mystery of Christ, which was kept hidden until the appointed time, we can see a distinct change in both the indwelling as well as that which He makes known unto us.



    God bless.
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Hello Percho, and thanks for the reply. I would have to have you clarify specifically, but it seems that you believe that the New Birth does not occur until we are glorified. If you could clarify if this is what you are saying I would appreciate it, as I don't want to jump to any conclusions that might not represent your belief.

    In the meantime, here are a few verses to consider that indicate that salvation is accompanied by the New Birth, and that it does not await glorification, or, the redemption of our bodies:



    1 Peter 1

    King James Version (KJV)

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


    22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

    23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.





    Titus 3:5

    King James Version (KJV)


    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;




    John 1:12-13

    King James Version (KJV)


    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.





    1 John 3:8-9

    King James Version (KJV)


    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



    And probably one of my favorite passages, as it gives us, I think, insight to overcoming as expressed in the letters to the Churches in Revelation:



    1 John 5

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.



    We cannot exclude the phrase "born of God" from the New Birth. Believing in Christ equals being born of God. Look back to John 1 where we see those that are born of God are born of God by His will. We do not see "they will be born of God," but the clear statement that they are.


    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.



    If one is born of God...they have overcome the world. What issue in life can man look to except receiving Christ which takes precedence over every other matter he will encounter here? There is nothing so important to man but to yield to the Holy Spirit and place faith in the Resurrected Lord.

    And John tells us here that it is this faith which is the victory, that which overcomes the world.


    5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


    We see that faith in Christ, overcoming the world, and being born of God are all tied together. In Revelation, the call is for those in the Church to be overcomers, and it is a call, I believe, to be saved.

    If I have misinterpreted your post I apologize in advance, and look forward to a response.

    God bless.
     
  18. Van

    Van
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    Word games, word games, word games. The Old Testament Saints gained approval through faith, Hebrews 11:1-2. To be a Saint is to be set apart. When Old Testament believers died, they were taken to Abraham's bosom, a place of comfort. When Christ died, they were made perfect, holy and blameless and were taken to heaven, born again from above.

    So the dispute is not that the OTS were born again, the clever deception of the thread title, but whether the OTS were born again before Christ died. The answer to that question is no.

    1 Peter 1:3 clearly teaches people are born again through the resurrection of Christ. You cannot go through a door based on a plan for a door.

    The whole "looking forward to the resurrection" hoax as the time travel salvation of the OTS is simply a complete work of fiction.

    So we get deflection, shuck and jive. Questions like so you believe the OTS were not saved are asked. Not the issue.
     
  19. Van

    Van
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    I agree with your view on many points, like people are spiritually born again during their lifetime, and then physically born again when Christ returns.

    However, comma, believing in Christ does not equal being born again. Matthew 7 describes folks who thought they were believers, but Christ said "I never knew you." So only those believers whose faith in Christ has been credited as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, are saved by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

    1 John 5:1, "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." Many claim this indicates you must be born of God in order to believe, but that is the opposite of what it says. Note the structure, whoever believes and the result is born of God; whoever loves the Father, and the result loves the child born of God. So they ignore the structure and make a bee line to the Greek grammar, everyone believing, i.e. in the present, has been born again, in the past. So they make an argument from silence, since the verse does not address when they started believing in the eyes of God. So they claim this verse says what it does not address. 2 Thessalonians says we are chosen through faith in the truth, thus faith comes before being chosen to be placed in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and only in Christ are we baptized into His death, undergo the circumcision of Christ, arise in Christ a new creature, thus born of God as a child of God.

    John spells out the sequence in John 1: 12-13, "12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Ask yourself how or by what mechanism a person is given the right to become a child of God. How about if a person is born again spiritually, they have a right to become a physical child of God. Thus the order is (1) as many as received Him - God's assessment, (2) given the right to become children of God - by God causing them to be spiritually born again, (3) and those born spiritually were born were born by the will of God
     
    #19 Van, May 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2013
  20. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight
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    No need to be a ugly towards me with this personal attack saying I using "cleaver deception". I do not seek to play games in a honest discussion. Satan is a deceiver and to accuse Christian in this manner is not kind. I have reported this.
     
    #20 Jedi Knight, May 15, 2013
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