Featured Were Old Testament Saints Born Again?

Not sure where I dismissed it, Van, simply trying to place it in a proper context. It is my view that we have to distinguish between "Kingdoms" in the Gospels, and one particular passage is John 3 itself. Nicodemus, not privy to the Mystery of Christ, would have had in view the Restored Kingdom that Christ would rule. That is, the Millennial Kingdom. We see in Matthew 24 this same Kingdom in view. Having that perspective, and again seeing the future fulfillment concerning the Promise of God in relation to the Comforter, we do not have to force a "Ye must be born again right now" on the words of the Lord to Nicodemus.

Just give it a little bit of thought.

That the Lord performed two primary ministries seems very apparent to me in the Gospels. As posted previously, we see that the Lord declares He has come to minister to Israel...only. When He sent out the disciples to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom...



Matthew 10:5-6

King James Version (KJV)


5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


...He does not command them to preach to the world (which of course is His "second" and primary ministry that is yet to be revealed to man).

He also states clearly:



Matthew 15:24

King James Version (KJV)


24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Do we scratch our heads and say "What do you mean, Lord? What about everyone else?"

No, we understand that Christ fulfilled the Law whereby He was THE Prophet that should come, He was the Christ, and His ministry to Israel was was not placed on hold, it was not ignored, and it was not cancelled out in favor of a new plan. It was prophesied and fulfilled to the letter.

Unknown, because it was not yet revealed to man, was that as John prophesied, He was the Lamb of God that should take away the sins of the world.

A weed is a weed.

We are discussing the nature of man, and scripture presents only two natures: the natural man; the New Creation.

And only one of those is born again. The word of God can be planted and watered, but the new creation is the result of the power of God. By this power man is changed from natural, to spiritual; from dead...to alive. The Lord said...



John 6:53-54

King James Version (KJV)


53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Natural man does not possess Eternal Life, because he is not in Christ, the source of life. In Him we share His Life.

The gift of God is made available to all men, yet not all men will be saved.

And in this we see the convicting ministry of the Comforter, when applied to this age.

It shows the possibility for natural man to associate with the Gospel, as well as the Body of Christ...without being born again.

Agreed. When one is made new, spiritually resurrected and passing from death to LIFE, there is no reversion.

I think it is a crucial aspect to keep in mind.

Just as in Hebrews, if we assume that all addressed are saved, then we must consent that loss of salvation may be possible, as some of our brothers and sisters erroneously teach.


Continued...

 

Again, "belief" must be "according to God," else it is no better than the belief of demons.

Right?

True belief is attributed to those that...truly believe, in the salvific sense.

The imputation of the righteousness of Christ is one aspect of the salvation of God in New Covenant terms, but is not the only aspect.

If we had to rely on our righteousness, we would surely be consigned to Hell.

Thus the glory of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Thus the necessity of a sacrifice that could take away sin and it's penalty.

We are debtors to God and His mercy.

God instilled faith in us, and by sanctification causes that faith to grow and strengthen, as we come to understand our need for His mercy.

Agreed, in regards to the above statement, however, we are being conformed to the image of God's Son, and fashioned after Him. Faith strengthened leads to a changed life for us.

I view that circumcision to take place at our re-creation, at the time of the New Birth.

While we yet remain in this body, we rely on our positional state of righteousness and perfection. We are complete in Christ, though we await the redemption of our bodies.

And you are correct in highlighting the saint's perfection. I am often amazed at how little this is discussed among the Body. Sad, isn't it?

Agreed.

Apart from the death of Christ, perfection was impossible. The Cross is a crucial aspect to salvation, and the New Covenant promises could not take place until Christ died in the place of sinners.

So I have to disagree with this statement.

They are in Hades because they did not receive Christ. I do not for one minute believe that God failed to minister to each and every one of their hearts.

It was their decision to reject Christ.

But that faith was not conceived by those saved, but by the will of God. And this through the convicting ministry of the Comforter.

Had He not brought us under the word of God we would not have had anything to place faith in. Hearing, believing, and yielding to the truth of the Gospel begins with the Ministry of God which He performs in the lives of men.

Agreed. Which seems to be at odds with the statement...

I understand what you are saying, my friend, but I think we must incorporate all aspects of salvation in the process, knowing that failure to include one part leads to a failure to communicate the fullness of the Gospel. The death of Christ is for good reason a prominent theme in scripture.

Interesting, is it not, that there are those that claim to have preached the Gospel, healed, and cast out demons, all of which are amazed that Christ never knew them.

They have a knowledge of the truth, but they are not known of Him. How many sit in pews that are in this position? How many hear the Gospel yet fail to receive Christ?

I believe the Lord answers this with...many. It would seem they are trusting in something other than Christ, that is, their own efforts. By understanding that Christ alone could provide Life to men, and that the efforts of men can in no way contribute to salvation, I believe faith can then become true.

In our hearts, do we really trust in Christ for our salvation? That is something we must all decide, and when we do come to that place where we realize the beauty of the Gospel, we can then truly place our faith in Him.

This does not really answer the question, Van. I have seen grammar used to teach passages two ways, when in reality we can trust that God will enlighten us to understand the context, content, and intent of His word.

Thanks for the reply, Van.

God bless.

 

Hi Darrel C. , this post addresses what you said in your posts up to and including post #58.

1) I was addressing what you specifically meant as to how the Spirit of God reveals Himself to the world, I was not questioning that He does. So your post #56 addresses something we agree on. LOL

2) And we agree God revealed Himself in various ways. LOL

3) You assert total spiritual inability of natural men. I showed that men of flesh can understand spiritual milk, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

4) You conclude the Holy Spirit's work of altering us supernaturally so we can understand the milk, is most important, because you embrace total spiritual inability.

5) Yes, our understanding of spiritual meat depends upon being indwelt, so only an indwelt person can grow to become a mature Christian. But the babes in Christ had not yet grown, and they had the same level of understanding as men of flesh.

6) I said Paul taught the natural man could not understand spiritual meat. You disagreed, posting 1 Corinthians 2:14, but not posting the rest of the passage or addressing my view.

7) You presented 1 Corinthians 2:10-12, which simply teaches Paul received the gospel from the Spirit of God. This is not in dispute.

8) You say the natural man does not receive milk. Paul says he spoke to the babes in Christ as men of flesh teaching the exact opposite of your view.

9) In the parable of the four soils, three of them did receive the gospel, and the second soil received the gospel with joy. He fell away so he was not indwelt. Again demonstrating natural men can understand the milk of the gospel.

10) We agree, natural men can understand the milk to the point where they are able to trust fully in Christ. Yes they have tasted the good work of the Spirit, the gospel of Christ, and yes they are in danger of falling away, like the second and third soils.

11) No we disagree that by "receiving Christ" meaning we put our trust in Christ, we are saved. When we put our trust in Christ, it is God who credits our faith as righteousness, or not, and if He does, then He puts us in Christ spiritually, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and it is in Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, born anew from above.

12) If Paul did not receive the fundamentals of the gospel, how did he speak to the babes, not with spiritual meat which they could not understand but with milk? Of course received the milk, but also the meat, including the mystery of Christ.

 

Yes, that is the writer's entire point:

Hebrews 11

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.





Hebrews 12

King James Version (KJV)


1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

"Finisher" means...Completer, basically. The faith of the Old Testament saints resulted in a "good report," that is, they were counted faithful and were set aside unto God, however, the Completion would not take place until Christ had died. In the meantime, the Covenant of Law was established and the writer of Hebrews has a focus on this covenant in relation to the New Covenant for good reason. This system was a shadow of the better things that would come, that is, the fulfillment of the promises of God. The writer makes it very clear that not only was perfection made possible through Christ, but he also makes this bold statement:



Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)


14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


There is no further work that needs to be accomplished concerning salvation. Christ has fulfilled the Law in every possible aspect. This is through...His death.

Absolutely.

Christ completed all that was necessary for man to be forgiven sin, given life, and guaranteed inheritance.

Until that work was accomplished, men in shadow and in faith offered up sacrifice that pictured that which God would accomplish.

I do not see that in the text:


Hebrews 11

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


In v.40 we see the impossibility of completion for them. We can dogmatically say that they were not made perfect, but have to insert a dogmatic statement that they were not made perfect. As long as the First Covenant was in place, completion in regards for sacrifice for sin was impossible.

Confusing perfection in regards to Atonement with perfection in regards to our daily conversation is a common mistake. The context of Hebrews does not allow, as the quotations of Paul you give do, that there is any indication that it is the actions of those perfected that are in view. In view is the work of Christ alone.

His work takes away sin, not the believer's.

In one sense no-one will ever be "perfect" as Christ is PERFECT, however, we do look forward to the day when we are bodily redeemed and will be like Him.

In Paul's use of perfect there is a growth and maturing of the saints whereby we put off sin and put on the new man, and in that sense we are being made perfect. An entirely different issue, and deals with the progressive sanctification of the saint, not the positional state. We are declared righteous positionally, but our daily conversation would betray that declaration, right? We are made perfect/complete and declared thus positionally, but we lead far from perfect lives, right?

Let's see the verse in totality:



Hebrews 5:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Now consider what the author, and ultimately the Holy Spirit, has already declared:



Hebrews 2:9-10

King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


Just as mentioned before, confusing perfection can throw understanding of what the writer presents into disarray. Jesus Christ was PERFECT because He was God manifest in the flesh. The "perfecting" here in no way relates to His Person, but to His role as Savior. Except He had died for man, their sins would not have been atoned for. This is why the writer speaks of His sacrifice in relation to salvation:



Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


One offering, as opposed to the continual offerings of the Law...which could never take away sins:




Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)


1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The answer to the writer's question, "Would they not have ceased if they took away sins and made perfect those that offered them?" is a yes that is without dispute.

But the once offered sacrifice of Christ allows for the setting aside and perfecting of the saints, and it will never...need to be offered again.

The answer is, not in the sense of making atonement for the sins of men. He was PERFECT in the sense that, as the writer of Hebrews also tells us...


Hebrews 7:26

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

...but it was necessary, in order to be perfect in regards to bringing about Atonement for man, that He die on the Cross. This is why the Old Testament saints were not perfect, or complete: because that sacrifice had not yet been offered up. They were "saved" on credit, so to speak, and assured of Heaven just as we are, but until He offered Himself up, the penalty for sin had not been paid.

If it were possible that Atonement and payment for the penalty of sin could be accomplished without Christ dying...that would have taken place. But it was necessary, and when He accomplished it, he said..."It is finished." He came specifically to die on the Cross, and that is what He did.

That is not what the writer of Hebrews teaches.


Hebrews 2:9-10

King James Version (KJV)


9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


He does not include the Resurrection as necessary for Christ to be perfect. His offering is complete because He died in our place, taking upon Himself our sin debt.


Continued...

 

This is true, but let us not forget that Christ is the Life-Giver.



John 10:28

King James Version (KJV)


28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Christ did not have to meet a standard of righteousness to be the Life-Giver, for He was the Life come down from Heaven that He might bestow His life to men, who were, according to Him...dead. Without Life.

My hope was not begotten again, but I was.

:thumbs:

Before that, I had no HOPE.

Are you saying that you are not a Christian and are in opposition to Christian Doctrine?

That the New Birth is without question accompanied by Eternal Life is clear in scripture. For example:



1 John 5:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


If you oppose born again believers having life then you stand in opposition to the teaching of Christ:



John 3:36

King James Version (KJV)


36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.




John 5:24

King James Version (KJV)


24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.




John 6:47

King James Version (KJV)


47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

If you don't mind me asking, exactly what faith do you follow, Percho?

Not according to the Son of God:



John 10:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.



John 2:19-21

King James Version (KJV)



19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Scripture does not allow for the teaching that the New Birth and LIFE await the redemption of the body.

There is simply too much teaching for this doctrine to be taken seriously.

Right: He is the LIFE.

That is because He is God, of course.

Because He offered Himself up:



John 6:53-54

King James Version (KJV)


53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


His "flesh and blood" refer to the body He would offer up.

He was made perfect by His sufferings, not His Resurrection.

Again, the use of perfection here refers to a different issue than that taught in Hebrews, where we see that those sanctified are made perfect forever. There is the completion we await when we are redeemed from these bodies and glorified, however, in regards to salvation we are forever made complete in Christ, we have eternal life, and we are assured that when we depart from these bodies we will be with the Lord.

God bless.

 

Hi Darrel C, continuing response to post #61.

1) A person must be born again to enter heaven. No one had entering heaven at that point in time, thus no one had been born again at that point in time. 1 Peter 1:3 says everyone is born again through the resurrection of Christ. Christ had not yet ascended spiritually to Paradise as the first born (referring to birth order) from the dead.

2) Before Christ died, He ministered primarily to Jews, certainly to the Jews first. But even then, the woman at the well was not a Jew. However, once He arose from the dead, He directed his disciples to go to all the nations (i.e. Gentile nations) and make disciples.

3) All of us started out as natural men who had not been born again, thus you and I were "weeds" according to your view. We were by natural children of wrath. But we received the gospel, we were cultivated, planted and watered. And as I described in Post#63, item 11, it is God alone who causes the increase in the number of born again people.

4)

We agree, LOL. Thus the ministry of Christ should be directed within as well as outside the church.

5) No, God does not instill faith in us, just the opposite, our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:2. God credits our faith as righteousness, whereas if the faith had been supernaturally implanted, there would be no need to credit it as righteousness or not, Romans 4:4-5.

6) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicates we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth and set apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit. To be chosen through faith means we had the faith before we were chosen. Thus many are called through the gospel, and chosen through God crediting our faith as righteousness, providing access to the grace in which we stand.

7) Yes, after God credits our faith as righteousness, He puts us in Christ were we are born again and arise in Christ a new creation.

8) You disagreed with my statement but did not even address it. If Christ's death alone saves men, then since He died for all, all would be saved, i.e. universalism. You do not believe in that. So God must put us in Christ to receive the benefit of the cross.

9) God says for us to believe, not that He compels us with instilled faith.

10) The NASB is considered to best present scripture according to the underlying grammar. That is the Bible I use, but of course it too has errors in translation.

 

Hello again, Van, and again thanks for the response. Just about out of time but I did want to get to this before going.

Actually, there are a number of things we agree on, Van, and a few of those I believe are of great consequence, and not often discussed in detail. So I continue to enjoy the conversation, which as I have said before, usually doesn't draw very much interest.

:thumbsup:

Correction: total spiritual inability apart from the ministry of the Comforter.

There is a big difference between the two. Man in his natural state gives no thought toward the spiritual things of God.

See above. Does not Paul say this very thing?


1 Corinthians 2

King James Version (KJV)


14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Paul is clear: the natural man does not receive them, nor can he know them.

That pretty much seals it for me. But the ministry of God allows the natural man to understand and embrace them. While that is taking place, he can be saved. When it ceases, he is in danger of and will likely...fall away. When a man rejects Christ, that state of repentance he is brought to under the conviction of the Holy Spirit...cannot be renewed. That is, for those that have seared their conscience, in their rejection of Christ which takes an active resistance to the Spirit of God and a doing despite unto.

Terming those unsaved "babes" is in error, I believe. Babes have to be born, and in regard to salvation in Christ being born of God is the first step. The unsaved are not babes, they are dead, without life, and in need of the new birth.

I did not disagree that natural men cannot understand the meat, but that they could understand milk apart from the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit. In regards to what was posted...

...the point is that the natural man cannot understand, therefore whether milk or meat the point is moot.

There is none that seeketh after God, except that God first seek them out.

I think we can glean a little more than that from this passage:



1 Corinthians 2:10-12

King James Version (KJV)


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Paul acknowledges that what he understands is a result of the Holy Spirit revealing these things to him.


11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Man, because he has a human spirit, is confined to understanding human things.

No man knows the things of God apart from the Spirit of God. That is my primary point.


12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Paul clarifies that we have received the Spirit of God, and the result is that one intention of the indwelling of God is that we might know the things which God seeks to impart to us.

Again, knowing these things is dependent upon the indwelling. This is contrasted with the spirit of the world, which has as a basis the spirit of man, which God said He would renew (Ezekial 36:26).

1 Corinthians 3

King James Version (KJV)


1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.


This is reminiscent of Hebrews ch.5, I feel. Paul does say you are not spiritual, but makes the point that he is forced to teach them as babes. For the time they should be teachers, but he must not only teach them as babes, but their behavior is that of those not even saved. Unlike Hebrews 5, here I believe the audience is assumed to be saved, though they are sinful in their actions.

I do not see how this is "the exact opposite of" my view. My view has expressed the inability of natural man to receive or even know the things of God apart from the Holy Spirit. Those that are born again, even babes, have the Holy Spirit, and thus are placed into the spiritual category rather than natural.

Paul makes it clear, and I have posted a number of verses and passages that attest to the fact that understanding is credited to the Holy Spirit in the ministry of Comforter. Not even the disciples had an understanding of the Gospel before the Holy Spirit came, and this is seen in Acts 1 where they are still...seeking for the earthly Kingdom promised by God in the Old Testament.



Acts 1:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


Amazing, is it not? The Lord speaks of the coming of fulfillment of the Promise of the Father and they ask this question.

Continued...

 

Now the big question, Van, and think about it before responding: if the Mystery of Christ was not yet revealed, that is, the several distinct details concerning salvation, do we see this parable as having no application to the ministry of Christ as Prophet and Messiah to Israel?

The Gospel goes out to all the world, yet during His ministry we do not see the declaration of the Work of Christ being preached. Paul preached Christ crucified, but the disciples...did not.

The revealed will of God is at all times the Gospel, yet we must distinguish between the revealed Gospel of Christ and the Gospel that was preached in the wilderness.

And I cannot see how this parable would deny the ministry of the Comforter as the means by which men are brought to the knowledge of the truth.

Agreed.

Again, I do not see this as debatable:



John 1:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Here we see the receiving of Christ tied to the New Birth. You cannot have one without the other. They are synonymous, I believe.

I think here we may just be victims of our own poor wording, lol. I agree with what you have said above, for the most part, but am not quite sure by what you mean by "we disagree that by "receiving Christ" meaning we put our trust in Christ, we are saved."

You cannot truly place your faith in Christ without receiving Him (in contrast to those that reject Him), and by receiving Him the New Birth is made possible. It is unlikely that God would convict someone, and then refuse them the new birth. He will not refuse those that come unto Him.

Again, perhaps poor wording on my part? lol

A student may have the fundamentals, but only someone "expert" (for lack of a better term) can both teach both the deep things as well as the fundamentals. What Paul received from God was not "fundamentals," so to speak, but the revelation of the deep things of God.

The "fundamentals" Paul already knew: that is, the first principles of the oracles of God and the principles or basic doctrines of Christ as presented in the Old Testament. It was to the revelation afforded by the Holy Spirit that the writer of Hebrews urges those he addresses to go on unto perfection, that is...completion which was first taught in the Old Testament but saw it's realization in Christ Himself.

Paul knew these fundamentals before he was converted.

And with that, Van, I have to get going. I just want to say to you and all those participating that I am enjoying the conversation immensely.

God bless.

 

No, Paul expressed the inability of natural man to receive or even know the things of God that are spiritual meat, apart from being indwelt with the Holy Spirit. He spoke to immature Christians who had not yet learned from their indwelt Spirit as men of flesh.

I know this is different from what is widely held, but God's word means what it says. Men of flesh can understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel. Now the gospel is the work product of the Holy Spirit, but that again is not what you mean. You claim men of flesh cannot understand the gospel unless altered. But you have no support in scripture. The grace of God's revelation is resistible, faith in not instilled.

Babes in Christ are born again saved Christians, they are not unsaved.

 

The saints of the OT are saved in the same way as the saints in the NT--by faith. We are justified by faith.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God (Romans 5:1)
Paul takes an entire chapter (Romans 4) to explain that, using both Abraham and David as examples.

Part of your problem is a misinterpretation of Heb.11:39,40. You have the interpretation wrong, and you have ignored the context. You also have ignored the entire 11th chapter, heroes of the faith, all of whom were saved by faith.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

"These all" All mentioned in chapter 11.
received not the promise--They knew about the promise, even understood it (vs. 13), but did not live to see it.

"Go having some better thing for us."
This was written close to 70 A.D., well after the resurrection. The author includes himself. He is writing to "The Hebrews," Jewish Christians, many of whom were discouraged because of the intense persecution that they had been suffering, and some of them were thinking of going back to Judaism. Throughout this epistle the writer gives a contrast of Judaism and Christianity. The word "better" is key.
We have a better sacrifice.
a better priesthood.
a better high priest.
a better intercessor.
a better covenant.
a better rest, and so on.

Many of these Jewish Christians were looking back at the Temple worship and thinking of going back, but the writer is pointing them to something better--i.e., Christ.
"That they without us" that is "our Jewish brethren who have already gone before us," should not be made perfect.
The writer's emphasis is on grace. The realization of their hope is anticipated by all believers. We will be made perfect when Christ comes again. We wait for the redemption of our bodies. "They without us should not be made perfect." or, "They will not be made perfect without us," or "We will be made perfect at the same time they will."

A.T. Robertson comments:

The emphasis is on "us" not on them. God has provided some better thing for us! We need to be thankful for what we have in Christ.

There is an application here for us. Why are we so blessed to receive the gospel in America (and Canada), rather than being born in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, etc., where chances are you may have never heard the gospel. Growing up where you did, you probably heard the gospel over and over again. That is grace. We have something better. We need to be thankful for what God has given us. God is a God of grace. We are the beneficiaries of His grace, not because we merit it.

They were the beneficiaries of his grace, not because they merited it. They had received something better.

 

Hello JK, I would have to question that translation, and would simply point to Christ's teaching concerning the coming of the Comforter as well as His time of arrival, that being after the Ascension as Christ said it must be.

Therefore it would seem fairly obvious that the translation "is in you" would contradict what is elsewhere taught.

For example:


John 14

King James Version (KJV)


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Note: the Comforter will abide with them...forever; the Lord says "I will come to you."



23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



Not just a ministry of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men, but the indwelling of God in the believer. We would not question that we could say that the Holy Spirit was IN men as He ministered through them, this goes without saying. But what the Lord is saying is going to happen cannot be denied, so we distinguish between the Holy Spirit's ministry before Pentecost (and Acts 1 makes it clear He has not come before this day) and after.

If that is what it takes to convince you then we should be able to put this to rest in this post:




Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.



What promise would we consider is in view here, and what teaching of the Lord do we have that they had "heard of Him," except the coming of the Comforter?

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


They were not yet Baptized with the Spirit of God so how then could we ascribe "anointing to them?

It will just not hold up under scrutiny.

It is after they are Baptized with the Holy Ghost (which can be contrasted with a baptism of judgment for those that reject Christ (Matthew 3:11-12)) that they receive power to preach the Gospel, or, in other words, be witnesses unto Jesus Christ:



8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

It is an impossibility for one not Baptized with the Holy Ghost to be filled with the Holy Ghost.

The burden falls on you to present a scriptural basis for the above statement. That is the topic of the thread, after all, whether men were born again in the Old Testament.

We have to consider that Life is not ascribed to the fathers who died in the wilderness, and among these men stood Moses, a man without question that God empowered for ministry, and the Holy Spirit ministered through.

Here...



John 6:49-50

King James Version (KJV)


49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


...the provision for life can be seen to be physical, not spiritual, and that all, including Moses, are not considered to have life, and specifically...eternal life.

As has been mentioned a number of times, that the Spirit of God was IN men before Pentecost is not in question, we have enough examples to know that His ministry is and always was an internal work in the hearts of men. The question is, if Life relies upon faith in the death of Christ, which was not accomplished until He came and died on the Cross, then how do we ascribe a spiritual life which is said to be everlasting to those that Christ taught awaited this indwelling?

God bless.

 

I have given scriptural support for my view and will add to that, starting with the fact that not even the word by which faith arises can be attributed to men, but the Holy Spirit:



2 Peter 1:20-21

King James Version (KJV)


20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.



2 Timothy 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The reasonable conclusion is that seeing that the word of God is attributed to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit we see that faith is traced to Him.



Matthew 11:25-27

King James Version (KJV)


25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


Here we see the title of "babes" given to those that we know have not received the Holy Spirit, for He had not as yet come.

If we examine the Lord's teaching concerning the indwelling that would come after His ascension, we see that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all in view concerning this indwelling. Here, prior to understanding concerning the Comforter, we see that apart from the revelation of God no man knoweth the Father or the Son. Those the Lord will declare "I never knew you" lack that revelation.




Matthew 16:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Again apart from divine revelation, which at times can be seen to be unknown even to those that prophesy, natural men have no understanding.



Romans 11:33-34

King James Version (KJV)

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?



Job 32:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.



Galatians 1:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


And I would add this:

Here...




1 Corinthians 3

King James Version (KJV)


1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.


...Paul says they (believers) were not able to partake of meat. He does not say they are not saved, but he must treat them as babes in Christ. Clarifying that they are indeed babes in Christ.

The term "carnal" does not necessarily signify that they are not saved, but depicts the character of their behavior.

Here...



1 Corinthians 9:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?


...we see the exhortation to minister carnal possessions to those that minister spiritual things. Paul is not exhorting them to give that which is ungodly, simply material. When those in Christ are carnal, they are worldly, materialistic, rather than spiritual.

God bless.

Not sure how my posts may have given the impression that babes in Christ are unsaved.

God bless.

 

Okay, a parrot walks into a bar with a guy on his shoulder...

...just kidding.

Are you saying this is true of you? That it makes no difference what is presented you will not be swayed from your current view?

Unfortunately, yes, it does take some space when discussing certain doctrines. There is no "magic bullet" for many doctrines we examine, and even if their were, few would be, as you say...persuaded.

Okay, here is another thought to consider. In a recent post a "better rest" was mentioned.

Question: is the Rest according to the New Covenant the same rest offered to those in the wilderness; did they enter into that rest; what, if any...is the difference?

God bless.

 

Hi DHK, no need for further discussion.

Folks, it has been said my understanding of Hebrews 11:39-40 is wrong, suggesting the OTS did not have to wait to be made perfect. However, this view is obvious, and no alternate view was presented. Then it was suggested that what is in view is our bodily resurrection. However, Hebrews 12:23 tells us of the spirits of righteous men made perfect, so the spiritual perfection is what they waited for. If they had been made holy and blameless, they would not have waited to be made perfect, apart from New Covenant Saints.

 

Hi Darrel C, you have certainly posted many lines of scripture, most of which is non-germane.

Paul spoke to born again Christians, babes in Christ, as to men of flesh, presenting the milk spiritual things that do not depend of learning from the indwelt holy spirit.

On the other hand no verse says or suggests men of flesh were supernaturally altered so they could receive the gospel with joy. It is simply an argument from silence.

Total Spiritual Inability is a fiction in my opinion, and it is not taught in any scripture. Scripture does not say no one seeks God at any time, that is an addition to the text. Contextually, the idea is no one seeks God while they are sinning and therefore everyone sins.

Babes does not equate with babes in Christ. So again your assertion is based on faulty understanding of the text presented, i.e. Matthew 11:25-27

Your constant mantra, that needing the revelation equates with supernatural alteration is without merit. It is proving "A" and claiming "B" has been proved.

 

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2

When the above is past tense.

Will we ever sin again?

Will we then be absolutely perfect? As perfect as Jesus, the Christ the Son of the living God?

What will be the difference in you and me then as compared to now?

Currently temptation comes and we slip up and succumb to that temptation and sin. When 1 John 3:2 is in the past, in your opinion will we still be able to slip up and be tempted and sin?

If your answer is no, please tell me why we will not sin anymore at that time.

I believe the perfection of verse 40 of Hebrews 11 is the better resurrection of verse 35.

The better resurrection that up to now Jesus is the only one that has obtained which is why Jesus is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

The author and the perfecter of the faith.



Abraham, to whom the promises were made, died in faith, not having received the promises.

Who beside Abraham were the promises made? According to Gal. 3:16 beside Abraham the promises were made to Abraham and his one seed the Christ. Abraham died in faith not having received the promises.

Did Christ also die? Does the promise concern an inheritance? G3:18 For if the inheritance of the law, no more of promise: but God gave to Abraham by promise.
Who would receive the promise before even Abraham could receive it? V19 Wherefore then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;
The seed of promise the seed of Abraham, the Christ.

What faith did Abraham die in? Was it the following faith? But before the faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

What revealed the faith that Abraham died in and by which the seed of Abraham, the Christ received the promises made to Abraham and his seed?

What was the promises that the Christ inherited and how did he inherit them?

Has Abraham the No. 1 OT saint received the promises to date?