Featured Were Old Testament Saints Born Again?

Van, I am not a Calvinist. I am not sure what you are trying to prove. But I do know one thing. You are using a tremendous amount of Scripture out of context. I explained Heb.11:39,40 to you in some detail. You offered no rebuttal. So let's try Heb.12:23, which you just referenced.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

This letter is a letter of encouragement to Hebrew believers. Notice in verse 22 it is addressed to "you." He is simply using the OT Mount Sinai as an illustration. What happened there? They came out of Egypt, and for the first time "assembled" as one nation at Mount Sinai.
We, today, have not reached that "Mount Zion" The only assemblies that we have are local churches. The word ekklesia means assembly. One day there will be a universal assembly but there isn't now. That great assembly in heaven will include the OT saints, the NT saints, along with an innumerable company of angels.
The "perfection" being referred to is the resurrection. We cannot be present in heaven unless we have a glorified body. "Perfect" means "complete." We will be completed with our bodies. "We wait for the redemption or our bodies." This applies to both OT and NT.

I too await that day, not just when I assemble with believers on earth, but when I will assemble with all believers (NT and OT) in heaven. What a glorious meeting that will be.

How that applies to regeneration, I don't know.

 

Out of Context

I did not use Hebrews 12:23 out of context. Note the tense, the spirits had been made perfect. Thus this does not point to our bodily resurrection but to being made perfect spiritually.

The assemble is the church of the first born, thus the church of Christ.

Next you make the mistaken claim we cannot be present in heaven until we are in our glorified bodies. Wrong again, everyone that dies in Christ goes to be with the Lord in heaven in the spirit. Jesus said today the thief would be in Paradise, referring to heaven, the abode of God.

Folks, I have shown that after Christ died, people were born again, 1 Peter 1:3, made righteous, Romans 5:19, made holy and blameless, Colossians 1:22, and that everyone put in Christ was baptized into His death, thus no one was put in Christ, born again, made righteous, made perfect, made holy and blameless before Christ died.

The heavenly Jerusalem is located in, drum-roll please, heaven, where the spirits of righteous men are gathered in the assemble of the church of the first born.

Its a lock folks, no one was born anew until after Christ died.
This is bedrock, fundamental, Christ centered scriptural truth.

Just read your bible, scripture is very clear.

 

You misconstrued what I said. I was referring to "assemblies." We cannot ALL assemble together until the resurrection. There are many yet to come in the harvest of souls that will be included in that assembly. That great general assembly is referring to all believers--the bride of Christ. I am not saying that one cannot be in heaven until we are in our glorified bodies.

I am not sure what argument you are trying to make here. Abraham, David, etc. were saved before the cross. This passage makes that point.

Let's look at the passage again. I think we agree on most of it.
Remember the date of the writing is about 70 A.D. He is writing to Hebrew believers in that era that had been suffering during a great persecution.
The contrast is between Mount Sinai of the OT, and now coming to Mount Zion, a heavenly mountain.

We do not come to a tangible mountain on earth. Our privilege is to enter by faith into that sanctuary in heaven. We can draw near with confidence. This mount symbolizes combined blessing of grace.
When one enters the presence of God, he first sees a great company of angels, a countless number of them. From Revelation 5 one notices that they cannot sing the song of the redeemed, though they be untainted with sin. They have never experienced salvation.

Then there is "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven." This is the church (up to that point), the body and bride of Christ, who have died since Pentecost and are now enjoying the Lord's presence. They await the resurrection when they will be reunited with their bodies.
By faith we see God the judge of all.
And yes, the OT saints are there. They are the spirits "of just men made perfect." But what does that mean? It means they were justified by faith. They now stand before God spotless, because of the value of the work of Christ has been imputed to their account. They too await the resurrection.

Now consider some other Scripture from the OT.
What did David say when he prayed for repentance?

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
--David was mindful of the presence of the Holy Spirit. He, though he had grievously sinned (murder and adultery) did not want God to take away the Holy Spirit from him.

Psalms 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
--It is a verse that seemingly upholds eternal security.
He does not pray for God not to take away his salvation, but rather the joy of his salvation. He was sure about his salvation. He wanted to continue in the joy of his salvation, provided by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This could only be possible if the Holy Spirit resided within this man of God.

All men, OT and NT, are saved the same way.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

 

I did not misconstrue what you said. And you are wrong to claim we cannot join an assembly of born again spirits in Heaven until all the spirits have joined. LOL

They sure were set apart and were saved subsequently. You are equating being set apart in Abraham's bosom, with being set apart in Christ. Two very different actions.

All these spirits who have assembled in the church of the first born have been washed, made righteous, made holy and blameless, and made perfect after the death of Christ, the first born (referring to birth order) from the dead.

Here is where I believe you go off the rails and into error. David was not indwelt, we are indwelt when we are sealed in Christ and this indwelling is forever. You are applying the blessing of the New Covenant in His Blood to the OTS. David's spirit went to Abraham's bosom because he did not ascend to heaven. Thus he had not been made perfect, he had to wait.

1) David could not have been born again before Christ died.

2) David could have been made holy and blameless before Christ died.

3) David could not have been made perfect before Christ died.

4) David could not have been made righteous before Christ died.

5) David could not have been baptized into Christ's death before Christ died.

Thus the OTS had to wait in Abraham's bosom to be washed with the shed blood of Jesus. This is bedrock doctrine, no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. No one.

 

You simply deny Psalm 51:11,12, instead of refuting it.
Can you do better than that?

Here is the NT support for that:
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

David's iniquities were forgiven; his sins were covered--all before the cross. Those aren't my words.
Paul agrees with David, who agrees with the Holy Spirit.
Can't fight with that.

 

I refuted your claim, I embrace all scripture

Psalm 51:11 supports my view and refutes your view, David was concerned with having the influence of the Holy Spirit taken from him. You agreed with that view, then claimed he was not concerned with having the indwelt Holy Spirit taken from him. This is a complete fabrication, it is reading into scripture what is not in scripture and scripture precludes the view.

David wanted God to restore the joy of His salvation, to be certain he was in the center of God's love, rather than being sorry for being someone who had gone against God's will.

And there is no support for your view in Romans 4 either.

Everyone is saved the same way, by grace through faith. But the details of how that was accomplished under the Old Covenant differs from how it was accomplished under the New Covenant in His blood.

1) The OTS has to wait to be made perfect, to be born again, to be indwelt according to scripture. After Christ died, then the OTS were made perfect, and joined the assembly of the first born.

2) The OTS believed in God and it was counted as righteousness, thus the OTS gained approval through faith and not works. But their faith was alive, demonstrated by works.

Take a long look at Romans 4:16.

 

God ONLY can save any sinner same way, by the Grace of the Cross, received thru faith...

the OT believers were saved by the death of jesus as were were, its just they were not indwelt by the HS as we are, so not part of the Church...

God remitted/did not hold their sins against them, but now under new and better Covenant, sins remiited ANF have Him indwelling all of us, and have diredct access to God!

 

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Take both verses together.
I don't believe David was concerned at any point in his life about losing his salvation. There is no one else in the Bible that is called "a man after God's own heart," (not even you) .
"Blessed is the man whose sins are forgiven." David knew his sins had been forgiven.
It is not his salvation or the loss thereof that he was concerned with, it was the joy of his salvation. "Restore unto me the joy of my salvation, not the salvation itself. He knew he had salvation.
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for thou art with me. David always had sense of the presence of God. God's promise to David was as strong to him in the OT, as it is to us in the NT.
"I will never leave you nor forsake you."
"I am the Lord; I change not."
Salvation has always been the same way: justification through faith.

Like any believer who sinned he wanted to restore his fellowship with God. Joy comes when fellowship with God is restored. The same principle is taught in 1John 1:9.

My view on Romans 4 is summed in Abraham who was justified by faith.

They, in faith, looked forward to the cross.
We, in faith, look back on the cross.
We both are justified by faith.

The word perfect means complete, mature.
Their salvation was complete, as they stood holy before God.
Even a wretch like Lot was declared righteous by God.

2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.

"Just Lot," "That righteous man," "his righteous soul." This man was declared righteous and just before God. That is as complete as salvation can get.

We don't read about the good works of Lot. But we do read that we was a righteous man. He was a just man. He was declared just and righteous because he believed God, not because of his works.

 

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Titus 2:11

For by grace are ye saved through the faith; Eph. 2:8

From Adam to the last man born of woman, if he is saved, it will be according to the above. Whether Old Testament of New Testament it will be by the above.

Grace was applied to a dead man because of the faith of the one who had died, in his own blood. His life/soul was in his blood and he poured out his soul unto death.

The following verses are in your bible.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before the faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster unto Christ, that by faith we might be justified. (The faith to come of Christ v23, 22) But after that the faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal. 3:22-25
(Grace having been applied to the one of faith, Christ and the promise having been given through that faith, the ones receiving the promise of the Spirit through Christ are no longer under the law that brings death but are now under the grace of God applied to the dead Christ in raising him from the dead. As it says in Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Also; For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.)

The Holy Spirit is our assurance, our confidence, our earnest, of receiving ourselves, what was given by God the Father to his only begotten Son Jesus the Christ, our Lord and Savior.

Those called by God in the Old Testament died in that faith that was to come by which the grace of God would be given.
Those called by God after that the faith did come, die in Christ and are under the grace received by Christ. We are heirs not yet inheritors of the grace of life.

Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

Hello JK, as to the spacing I prefer it that way as it makes it easier to read, I believe. Not sure as to what it is you are inferring here as I feel I have been clear that the Spirit of God is He that brings men to follow Him, from start to finish.

And there is no question as to the same Holy Spirit that ministered in and through men in both Old and New Covenant economies. What is in question is the unique ministry which we see promised in the Old Testament and established in the New.

One area of discussion would be the Life which Christ came to give. Did the Old Testament saints have that Life? If the revelation of the Mystery of Christ was not unveiled until after Christ appeared, died, rose again, ascended, and sent the Comforter...how then did the Old Testament saints partake of that life which was sent from Heaven?

God bless.

 

Hello Van, I will have to let the discussion concerning the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men lay idle until you at least deal with the scripture I have presented as a scriptural presentation of what I have suggested. It is a little difficult to draw any conclusions if the arguments presented go unanswered and simply have "They are irrelevant" statements offered. Show why they are irrelevant rather than just making the statement, then perhaps your view might be better understood.

In my view, the ministry of the Holy Spirit as being distinct under the New Covenant is one of the primary reasons we can see a distinction between His ministry in the Old Testament and the New.

God bless.

 

Hello Percho, thanks for the reply, and sorry to take so long to get back to you.

The answer to the first and last questions in my view would be an emphatic no.

I do not think that we will sin again, but at the same time, ascribing a perfection which is held by God is going a little too far, in that we would in some manner be likening the glorification of the saint to deification, which is not what scripture presents, I believe. In other words, there is and only ever will be One God, and only He is perfect in the sense of never having been imperfect which include the Son of God Who is said to "be made perfect" which refers to His role as the sacrifice for sins and Captain and Author of our salvation, rather than His nature.

Hope that makes sense.

The middle question I will let you arrive at your own conclusion based on this view.

The removal of our fallen nature which we are still tied to through the physical body.

But understand that perfection is taught in at least three different contexts in scripture: 1) maturity, which deals with progressive sanctification while we are in the body; 2) glorification, which deals with our being made like Him; 3) completion concerning salvation in regards to forgiveness of sins, which the Law (First Covenant or Covenant of Law) was but a shadow, a parable of.

And it is this last that the writer of Hebrews deals with. And I think that is what is in view in the context of this discussion.

I don't believe so, myself. However, that does not negate the fact that the perfection not granted to the Old Testament Saints "without us" can be seen to be a completed process concerning salvation. This is why there "is no more sacrifice for sins," and to reject salvation in Christ leads to judgment. They "do despite unto the Spirit of Grace," just as Stephen charged the "fathers," however, the importance of Hebrews 11:39-40 shows a change from not receiving the promise to receiving it.

Because we have had that which causes us to sin removed: the flesh we were born in.

Hebrews 11:35-40

King James Version (KJV)


35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:



39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Okay, let me ask you a question: do we receive something different than they? In v.40 we "God having provided some better thing for us," does this mean that there are two different promises obtained?

The answer is no. What it means is that in their lifetime, while they received a good report, they did not receive the promise. In our lifetime, we do.

In v. 35 we see that they sought to obtain a better resurrection, which does not imply two different types for saints, but contrasts the First Resurrection with the resurrection unto damnation. That is the difference. But the promise was not received by them, and perfection is just one part of the Promises of God to Israel and the Old Testament Saint.

Are you suggesting that this resurrection is a new concept in scripture? It is a basic, fundamental truth throughout scripture that there are two resurrections, one unto life, and one unto "death," or, damnation.

The saints of 11:35 did that which they did because they understood that. And it does not impact the surety of their resurrection, but neither does it allow for them to have been perfected.

Perfection is through the coming of that which the Law foretold in figure, such as forgiveness of sins being complete, making it unnecessary for further sacrifice to be offered.

Properly the Author and Completer of our faith. This is the completion spoken of in Hebrews.

And He will finish that which He has begun in us. He begins our faith, He finishes it.


Continued...

 

And this is the point made by the writer of Hebrews.



Hebrews 11:39

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:




Acts 1:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

Christ is the promise, my friend.



Galatians 3:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Few would argue this.

The point being that receiving the promises is not dependant upon the Law, but upon Him Whom the Law foretold Who would fulfill the Law.

For example, the Law pictured forgiveness or remission of sin by the shedding of blood...a picture fulfilled by Christ. Until that One Sacrifice was offered, what the Law pictured was not fulfilled, thus sacrifice was dail;y, not taking away sins.

Seeing that the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that "they should not be made perfect," or complete, it would stand to reason that the completion brought by the fulfillment of the Law has a simultaneous application to every saint, meaning, completion was brought about for all when that One Offering was made. In other words, Abraham awaited Christ and His death to be, with us, made perfect.

There is no denying Hebrews 10:14, despite the fact that we still await the redemption of our bodies. It is similar to the "salvation" of the Old Testament Saints: they were every bit as saved as we are, in regards to forgiveness of sin, however, that completion awaited that time in History when the Son of God would come down from Heaven to bestow eternal life upon those that believe on Him.

Christ is the promise.

The Law was added til the seed should come, again showing that history awaited that focal point, when Christ would appear, He being the Lamb of God which should take away the sins of the world.

We do not see that those sins were taken away before this, as if they had, would the sacrifices of the Law ceased from being offered? The writer of Hebrews asks this very question which demands a negative answer.

I think this verse makes it clear that it was not.

The writer of Hebrews distinguishes between perfection and the basic principles of Christ, and included in those basic principles is a general faith in God, which Abraham held. He did not have faith in the specific death of Christ for his sin.

Here the Faith of Christ is clearly seen to have a time when it is revealed (afterwards).

The faith of Abraham is not what is revealed, Percho. And Christ came in fulfillment of the promises, not to receive the promises. He is the Author, not the receiver.

Perhaps this is best answered by you, my friend. You tell me the promises Christ inherited.

Concerning the perfection spoken of by the writer of Hebrews in ch.11, I believe he has, in that while Abraham was imputed righteousness due to faith, he still awaited Christ to fulfill the Law.

I would also add that redemption still awaits it's culmination in the eternal state, where we are all redeemed from these bodies and dwell where sin shall not enter. But in view here is, I believe, a focus on the death of Christ and the completion that this brought to those of faith, unto whom The Faith in Jesus Christ was revealed, previously said to be a Mystery, yet unrevealed until that time in History when Christ appeared.

Thanks for the response.

God bless.

 

I agree with this, actually. But I think where we may differ is that I see the "anointing" as a ministry which has always been performed by God in the lives of men, such as someone mentioned Numbers in an earlier post. Today, that same "anointing" would, I believe, be what we consider the filling of the Spirit of God, wherein He empowers us for ministry just as He did then.

So the anointing you refer to I see very clearly not only in the Old Testament saints, but in the New Testament saints as well. But we do not confuse the filling with being Baptized with the Holy Spirit, do we? We recognize that one might be born again, indwelt by the Spirit of God yet still held to the command to be filled with the Spirit.

So I think that is where our views depart, JK.

God bless.

 

Don't polls also say that 75% of Americans are Christians?

lol

God bless.

 

Am I the only one that finds it a little strange that no-one has opted for the "Not Sure" option in the poll? lol

I will put it like this, guys, I myself take a position that I may be in error, so in light of that it may be that I fall into the Not Sure category, if we get down to the nitty gritty. But I have been for quite a while testing my view and so far I am heavily leaning toward the belief that the new birth did not take place until the establishment of the New Covenant. Thanks to all those participating, as I have said before, this topic has always dropped off before with little interest taken in it, so I appreciate you guys taking an interest.

God bless.

 

I just voted "not sure"...:smilewinkgrin: After reading this thread I see points on both sides. This is one subject I have not throughly studied to really discuss. But I have enjoyed and learned alot from both sides.

My question at this point would be...and maybe I missed the answer somewhere...
If the disciples did not understand fully what what was fixing to take place with the death of Jesus...how could the OT saints fully understand the complete gospel?

 

Hello Awaken, you take probably the better of the positions, lol, as it is a topic which I too have seen some pretty convincing arguments presented for both sides.

It is just my belief that it was an impossibility for them to understand because it simply had not been revealed. Much of Christ's ministry was a mystery in relation to how He would fulfill the Law. Just as an example...


Romans 16:25

King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


Here is a link that lists the use of the word mystery and is a good study. Perhaps you could take a look at it and see what you think.

We do see the Gospel mentioned as having been given in the wilderness here:



Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


Would we view this as the revealed Gospel of Jesus Christ or consider that the way of life provided by God throughout history can be properly called the Gospel, though we can distinguish between that was revealed. For those under the Law, truly Christ was presented to them in figure, shadow, and parable, but, when we consider the opposition of Peter to the death of Christ and John sending two disciples to inquire if Jesus was He they awaited, we have to pause and consider that they were not aware of what Christ would do. Having been given the Spirit of God we can in retrospect look at the Old Testament and clearly see Christ in the prophecy, yet, I believe that it was not revealed for the purpose that the adversary not interfere. He thought of Christ's betrayal and death, which he actively participated in, as a great victory. He would soon find out his mistake, and realize that he had helped bring about his own defeat.

One last verse for consideration:


1 Peter 1:9-12

King James Version (KJV)

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Notice that Peter speaks of "the Spirit of Christ" which was in them. Here I believe we see, even as we do in Romans 8:9, the Spirit of Christ made synonymous with the Spirit of God, Who ministered through prophets. We know the Comforter had not come, so it seems to me that His ministry should not be attributed to this declaration of the Spirit being in them. Furthermore, we see the Prophets "enquired and searched diligently," and "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you (us, those after the Prophets)."

Would we not look at this as they sought to know but did not? And would we not see a distinction in "the grace that should come (unto you/us)?"


11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow


What we can say is that the Spirit testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the resulting glory. We might take the position that only a select understood, such as the Prophets themselves, but I think Peter denies that possibility here, but rather presents a picture that they desired to know, even as did the Angels:


12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


I think they were aware that they prophesied, and that it would be at a later date that the fulfillment of that prophecy would take place, which is basically a given, in that it was after all prophecy.

Peter makes the statement that those things "are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven," and again we see the close tie between the Comforter (Who was sent from Heaven) and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which leads again to the belief that the Mystery of Christ was not revealed completely until the Comforter came. And on the very day we see the disciples preaching the Gospel and leading men to Christ.

Coincidence? I don't think so, but, as I have said before, by looking at these things I think that the perspectives from the diverse studies of those here can at the very least add to that which we must consider in order to come to a conclusion in our own hearts. I, for now, take the position that the New Covenant brought with it a completion concerning salvation not shared by the Old Testament saints, though we understand that their salvation through faith was as every bit as secure as ours is today, though we await the redemption of our bodies and the Eternal State.

So I look forward to seeing what the Lord will show you Awaken, and appreciate your participation in this thread.

God bless.