Were only the Apostles baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Olivencia, May 1, 2009.

  1. Olivencia

    Olivencia
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    Many from the church of Christ insist that only the twelve Apostles were baptized wit the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4. They claim in Acts 2:1 the pronoun "they" refers back only to them in Acts 1:26.
    However Luke is not as grammaticaly stringent as those who make such an assertion would like to believe. For if Luke was this precise then we would have the chief priests and rulers of the Jewish people as the ones who physically crucified Christ and not the Romans (Luke 23:13, 25, 26, 33). The baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4) refers to the 120 or so that were mentioned in Acts 1:15
     
  2. JSM17

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    Prove that the 120 were with the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.

    Verse 1:15 states that there were 120 men with the Apostles.

    At chapter 2:1 the day of Pentecost had come.

    How long did the 120 stay with the Apostles?

    Does the "they" in 2:1 refer directly to the 120 in 1:15?

    How do you know that this is not another day or even in a different place?
     
  3. Olivencia

    Olivencia
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    The 120 or so were baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4.
    1. Because the story naturally flows that way. If not I'd like to see the evidence that a break exists.
    2. The Spirit was poured out on the 120 (1:15) without baptism (TDNT 6:413, pneuma). I'd like to see any Greek lexicon that limits it to the Apostles.
     
  4. JSM17

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    The pronoun “they” in Acts 2:1 does not refer to the 120 disciples, but to the immediate antecedent—the apostles. This fact is illustrated further by the fact that, in Acts 2:14, the Bible records that Peter was “standing up with the eleven,” and in 2:37 the text mentions that the audience spoke to “Peter and the rest of the apostles.” Further, in Acts 1:2,4, it was the apostles whom Jesus commanded to wait in Jerusalem until they the Holy Spirit had come upon them.


    a. Either the eyewitnesses were wrong in thinking the speakers were all Galileans or

    b. b) all of the 120 were Galileans

    Follow the pronouns “they,” “them” and “these” throughout Acts 2:1-15. “They” (v. 1),
    “they” (v. 2), “them” (v. 3), “they” (v. 4), “them” (v. 6), “these” (v. 7), “them” (v. 11),
    “they” (v. 13), “these” (v. 15). It seems clear that all these references throughout the entire
    passage are to “Peter, taking his stand with the eleven” (Acts 2:14, NASB).
     
  5. Olivencia

    Olivencia
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    1. You supplied no Greek lexicon to support your assertion. I supplied one but you didn't supply any. More on this later.
    2. Your point about Acts 2:14 is pure conjecture. It states Peter stood with the eleven. That in no way negates that the others weren't baptized with the Holy Spirit. If it does then prove so.
    3. Concerning Acts 1:2, 4 again it is pure conjecture that just because Christ addressed only the Apostles that the others weren't baptized with the Holy Spirit as well. For the Apostles later met with them in the upper room (Acts 1:13) before the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred.
    4. Follow the pronouns? In that case we have the Jewish authorities as the ones who physically nailed Christ to the cross (Luke 23:13, 25, 26, 33). I specifically pointed out in my OP this point but you still appealed to the argument anyway when I already "pre-refuted" it. Why?

    5. I asked in my last post:
    I'd like to see any Greek lexicon that limits it to the Apostles.
    You chose not to.
    Why?
    I'll tell you what. I'll supply a Greek lexicon/dictionary....but it won't be to support your case but another one that goes against it.

    It may well have been among the hundred and twenty or so followers [Acts 1:15] there were those who already knew something of the languages mentioned, and for whom therefore the gift was primarily an enabling to proclaim "the mighty works of God" (NIDNTT 2:740, Other).
     
    #5 Olivencia, May 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2009
  6. Pastor Larry

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    The antecedent of "they" is the assembly, not the apostles. "They" drew lots. The whole passage is about the 120 believers waiting in Jerusalem for the promise of the Spirit.
     
  7. JSM17

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    Acts 1:12-2:13

    12 The Upper Room Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.
    13 When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.
    14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along withthe women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
    15 At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said,
    16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
    17 "For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry."
    18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.
    19 And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
    20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE, AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT'; and, 'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.'
    21 "Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us--
    22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us--one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
    23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
    24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
    25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
    26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

    Now we assume that the 120 remained with them until the day of Pentecost came, how many days did the 120 plus the 12 stay together until Pentecost?
    Acts 2

    2:1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.

    2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
    3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.

    This does not say the H.S. fell upon 120.

    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
    5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
    6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.

    7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, " Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?

    "They" here points to the crowd from verse 6, Galileans refers to those who spoke in his (they) own language. There is no indication that 120 men from GALILEE spoke in tongues.
    8 "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
    9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
    10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
    11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
    12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
    13 But others were mocking and saying, " They are full of sweet wine."
    NASU


    Olivencia has a hang up with Lexicons, you will not be judged based upon a Lexicon, but God's word. The bible clearly reveals the truth. It is highly unlikely that the 120 received the power and the signs. This however does not mean that those who obeyed in verse 38 didn't receive the Gift of the H.S. as Peter states. That gift was given to those who obey, repent and be baptized.
     
    #7 JSM17, May 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2009
  8. JSM17

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    Acts 1:7-8

    7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

    8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
    NASU
    Was Jesus speaking to the 120 in this passage?
     
  9. Olivencia

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    1. There is no indication that the 120 were not baptized with the Holy Spirit. Like so many cultic groups the church of Christ has this arrogance how the denominational world believes that the 120 were baptized with the Holy Spirit. They glibly state that if one follows the pronouns that it only refers to the Apostles. But as demonstrated by Luke in his Gospel he isn't as stringent as the church of Christ insists.
    2. Notice the following events that took place with the 120.
    a. Peter addresses them in the upper room (Acts 1:15-22).
    b. They appointed two men to replace Judas (Acts 1:23).
    c. They prayed (Acts 1:24).
    d. They gave forth lots (Acts 1:26).
    e. They were all in one room (Acts 2:1).
    May I remind JSM17 that the original text did not have either chapter or verses. One just read straight through without any kind of "breaks". Now if one were to read the events that took place without the numbers of the chapters or verses one would see that Luke intends to convey that the 120 were included.
    One more thing in regards to JSM17's insistence on the use of the pronoun, I wonder if he has read 2 John 1:7? If the use of the pronouns are not at all flexible then according to his approach one would have to believe that Jesus Christ is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    3. Of course we will be judged based on God's word - and those words have meanings and the meanings can be found in Greek lexicons. So often with the church of Christ they must go against every Greek lexicon known to man to support their aberrant and heretical doctrines. No Greek lexicon will agree with them so the church of Christ just agrees with themselves.
     
    #9 Olivencia, May 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2009
  10. JSM17

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    They were Galileans, were the 120 Galileans?
     
  11. Olivencia

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    Yas they were. And your point?
     
  12. EdSutton

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    Without weighing in on any particular group, one way or another, I guess on could make various grammatical arguments re. Ac. 2:4, to 'support' various views. I don't even know that this is particularly important, except as theology and exegesis, considering the words used.

    The word "baptize" ("βαπτιζω"), or a derivative of this word do not appear in this verse. Rather, the word used is "filled" ("επλησθησαν" a form and ending of "πληθω"), another word, entirely.

    What is not arguable, however, is that there was a promise given that "you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now" in Ac. 1:5 (NKJV), that the Holy Spirit would come, after the Lord's departure as spoken in Jn. 16:7-15; they were all 'filled with the Holy Spirit" (Ac. 2:4): that the Spirit was "poured out on all flesh" (Ac. 2:17-18); that Peter mentioned this baptism as having already occurred in Ac.11:14-17 in his account to the Jerusalem leaders, and that I Cor. 12:13 declares that this baptism in the Spirit is something that all believers have received, by the time that letter was written.

    So I suggest that while I might not be able to "prove" this exegetically (especially, were I to limit my exegesis to only the one verse), this coupled with the statements in Ac. 10:44 and 11:14-17 that the Spirit "fell" upon them and "filled" in Ac. 2:4 would certainly lead me to ask, "If not then (at Pentecost in Ac. 2:4), then when?" Nothing else seems to fit all the above Scriptural criteria and phenomena, anywhere near as well as this event, IMO.

    Thus merely by 'tempering Scripture with Scripture', I believe that all the disciples (not just the apostles), and subsequent believers were indeed "baptized in the Holy Spirit" beginning that very time, and subsequently.

    Ed
     
    #12 EdSutton, May 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2009
  13. JSM17

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    First I would like to states that I believe that all Christians are baptized with the Holy Spirit.

    Secondly I do not see the scripture in Acts 1, 2 expressing that all received the sign. The signs and wonders were for the purpose of those who gathered to believe that the H.S. had come just as He was promised. Also the message that Peter would preach was from God, the sifns confirmed these things.

    I do not see scripture teaching us that all 120 plus the apostles were first and foremost Galileans, besides it really does not matter when it comes to the idea that all Christians or sons of God receive the promise of the Spirit.

    Olivincia just has a deep dislike for the churches of Christ and has a chance to vent it towards me.

    For me the fact could stand that these 120 were indeed Galileans, but I think it is unlikely therefore I do not hold it agaist anyone who does think this.

    The signs and power were not given for the purpose of proving that they were saved, but proves that the H.S. had been given as Joel spoke of.

    Were the Apostles saved before or after this event?

    When you look at 2:38 and 5:32, scriptures tell us when the H.S. is given to those following the events in our text 2:4

    As for Acts 2:4 they refers to the Apostles, yet they are not the only ones who received the H.S. that day.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    He was speaking directly to the apostles. There is no indication that the same truth would not apply to others. The Bible makes clear that it did.
     

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