Were The Apostles Totally Depraved?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Jul 1, 2003.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    We have talked about the total depravity of Adam and the total depravity of man handed down by Adam to his offspring?... Question can it be proved by scripture that the Apostles also shared in total depravity?... Or were they just unhardened as Brother Bill suggest by his doctrine of hardness. Could they be totally depraved while bringing out the glorious truths of the gospel of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?... If you have been on this board long enough you know my position already I won't explain it... Just end with this declaration by the Apostle Paul... This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptation that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief!... What of the depravity of the Apostles... Comments... Yes?... No?... How dare you even suggest that!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  2. William C

    William C
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    Glenn,

    I do wish you would pay closer attention to my posts. I've never claimed that the apostles themselves were not sinful. In fact I have continually affirmed the doctrines of orginal sin.

    I disagree with the part of Total Depravity which teaches that man cannot respond to the Holy Spirit's inspired gospel message with belief.

    Now, if you can show me a passage where Paul says, "He was the chief of not being able to believe without the irresistable, inward calling of God," then you might have something.
     
  3. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Bill's trademark is that only the Apostles and Prophets were elect. This means they were sinful because they were offspring of Adam, but they were special because they were the elect of God, while everyone else, I mean all other men must count the cost and see if he can pay now or would rather pay later.

    Or something like that, I don't read his posts very close either and I guess a face to face talk would be best...yeah, I am in agreement with that. Hey, Bro. Bill, when ya coming to Ky for vacation? I'll meet ya half way, say way over yonder in Western Ky the place where time forgot...you know around...ok, forget it. I don't have time to do it either.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. William C

    William C
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    UGGGGGGG!
    Dallas, if I were a moderator I'd edit you for misrepresenting my views. ;)

    As long as we have been at this brother I'd think you had just a little better understanding of my views. I believe God has chosen or elected everyone to salvation through the hearing and believing of the truth.

    I believe there are certain people who were elected, or chosen, to be divine messengers. Take Jonah for example. He was selected by God to carry a message to Ninevah. I would even say he was irresistably chosen (as was Paul). They were compelled to preach!

    Now, does biblical proof that God irresistably calls his divinly appointed messengers to preach prove that he also irresistably calls their listeners to respond? NO!

    You can prove in scripture that Jonah was irresistably called to preach, but you can't show that Ninevah was irresistably called to respond. The same is true of Paul and his audiences.

    Yes, they were special. Paul specifically speaks of his being 'set apart from birth' as being a unique characteristic of his apostleship in Gal. 1. Does that mean I don't believe they were sinners in the need of a savior? NO!!! I believe in original sin, I don't believe in Total depravity. Please learn the difference so that you don't misrepresent me again and again.

    I read your posts closely. Why? Because I respect you and your opinions enough to do so. And I realize that I might learn something from actually considering what others have to say even if I disagree with them. If I take the time to respond to someone post or comment about them, I at least try to read them carefully enough to understand what they are saying. I wish you would extend to me the same curtiousy.

    If you'll PM me you phone number I'll call you and we can talk through this.
     
  5. Scott J

    Scott J
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    Bill, In our engagements, I have read your posts thoroughly and got a similar impression. The one exception being that I didn't relate it to apostles and prophets alone but "remnant" Jews. In fact, it seems that you made a really big deal about election applying to the "remnant" only.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    No one has ever been edited for misrepresenting a view and no one will be. Let's keep it positive and on topic.
     
  7. William C

    William C
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    I don't know what to say except I'm sorry for giving you both that impression. I must not have been clear enough. I'll try to do better.

    Calvinists have a tendency to use the word "election" as if it only applies to God's election of those who will be eternally saved. You must remember that "elect" simply means "chosen" or "selected." Now, when someone is chosen or selected they are done so for a purpose.

    For example, I could choose or elect GW to be my President but Laura Bush might choose or elect GW to be her husband. Both of us made a choice but it was for a different purpose.

    In the same way, God may choose or elect a nation for several reasons. He may choose to reveal Himself to them through medators like prophets, priests and kings. He might choose to use them as a lineage for the coming Messiah. These revelations of Himself would be merciful and gracious. He could also choose to harden a nation because of their rebellion. Out of that nation he could individually choose to call out divine messagers to carry the good news to the world. He could choose to use the sinful action of a betrayer to accomplish his purpose and he could choose to ingraft another nation who were once known as not being His people. God makes many choices and selects many people. We must ask ourselves specifically who is being chosen and for what purpose are they being chosen for, instead of creating this "doctrine of election" and trying to make every scriptural reference about God's choosing fit into that doctrinal presupposition.
     
  8. Scott J

    Scott J
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    ...retaining the right to revise and extend this post... I think I agree with everything you just wrote for a whole paragraph! I am truly stunned. :D [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Now the hanger... I believe all saints are called and chosen for a particular purpose within God's plan.
     
  9. William C

    William C
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    So do I.

    What do you know we agree on two things. :rolleyes:
     
  10. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Hello Bro. Bill,

    I sent you a pm. But if you are thinking that I will change my belief, don't call, I don't care to discuss it, so it is your dime.

    BTW, I am glad you are at least telling your friends what you really believe, that is perhaps a great burden off your shoulders huh?

    I really am glad for you. Now, did you tell them of your own free-will, or because you were provoked to jealousy through the hardness of your heart because of the hardness of all us BB Sovereign Gracers? ;)

    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  11. William C

    William C
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    Not every Calvinist on this BB is as hardened as some might think. I've had some PMs that have indicated quite the contrayary in fact.

    Some people are willing to view these things more objectively than others.
     
  12. Frogman

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    Looks like you are avoiding my question...revealing ;)

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Have Calvinists yet answered the question as to how a lost - non-elect person can be "hardened" once they are already totally depraved?

    What is "down" from the standpoint of already totally depraved?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Frogman

    Frogman
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    IMHO, there is only a fulfillment of Romans 1.28.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Romans 1:25 "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie... FOR THIS REASON God GAVE THEM OVER to degrading passions"

    There is a "Sequence" shown here - and the hardening that we read about in scripture - seems to be in play. It is not shown as "no change" but as a spiraling descent downward - even from the starting point of being lost.

    I do not deny the depravity of man - but I also see a "hardening" that results in a worse condition than at the start of the sequence where the Spirit of God 'Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment'.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I believe in hardening to according to the will and purpose of God in time... Though totally depraved he can still be hardened... Now that being said can the one totally depraved and hardened at the same time be quickened?... ALL Men are Totally Depraved but not all are hardened!... Is the one totally depraved or hardened of the elect?... Because election is separate from total depravity and hardening... Being that one embraced in election was before the foundation of the World was created and before Man did any good or evil!... To each his own... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  17. William C

    William C
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    Really?

    Paul says, ''Go to this people and say: You will listen and listen, but you will not understand. You will look and look, but you will not learn, 27 because these people have become stubborn. They don't hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise, they might really understand what they see with their eyes and hear with their ears. They might really understand in their minds and come back to me and be healed.'" Acts 28

    Notice the word OTHERWISE? It means had they not been hardened they could have understood, seen, heard and been healed. That blows your theory out of the water.
     
  18. tyndale1946

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    Sorry Brother Bill but it does not because it is not talking about ALL mankind but a segment of it. Who is this people?... Is this people ALL mankind?... NO!... But a part of mankind and only to those in question!

    Can I harden myself?... Sure can if I disobey God but does that hardening control my eternal destination?... If it does then I can lose the gift of eternal life... Can I?... Can anyone?... If so then I control where I go eternally by what I do or don't do?... Do I?... If I do where is election?... Not only that doesn't that make election conditional upon those elected by their walk? Interesting that Pharoah hardened his heart but after he saw the works of Almighty God why did God have to harden his heart?

    Did you ever wonder why God had to harden Pharoah's heart?... Would not Pharoah have let Israel go post haste and with a mighty hand saying my hands are tied these are God's people leave them alone or is all this here to teach us a deeper lesson.

    I believe the Apostles were Totally Depraved because if they were not they didn't need a Savior but were they hardened. Was Peter hardened when he turned his back on Jesus and said I know not the man and denyed him three times. What of Apostle Paul was he hardened when he was Saul of Tarsus and went about destroying the church of the living God?... God unhardened him in his time according to his own will and purpose and not before but was he not also until the day he died totally depraved?... If not why does he make the declaration... Oh wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from the body of this death?... What was he talking about if he was no longer hardened?... Just a few questions Brother Bill and other brethren... What about them?... To each his own... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  19. William C

    William C
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    Glen,

    I don't know where to start. :confused:

    I don't think I'm even going to attempt to address this because it is so far base I wouldn't know where to begin.

    I know Acts 28 is only talking about a group of people. That was my point.

    I know God had to hardened pharoah's heart so that he wouldn't let the people go too soon. I've argued that many times on this board.

    And I've never said that Paul or the other apostles were not hardened to some extent.

    All of your arguments are based upon arguments you somehow think contradict my views which makes this discussion very difficult to follow and impossible to answer.

    Back to the main point:

    Israel could have seen, heard and been healed by God had they not been hardened. True or False?
     
  20. tyndale1946

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    True!... But since totally depravity is an inborn condition could not the same Israel that was hardened also be of the elect?... If not why does God say they are in Romans?... Can they be disobedient children of God and still be bound for glory?... The scripture state in Romans that enemies of the gospel were beloved of the Father!... How can that be?... God's redeemed are his redeemed unless HE SAYS they are not and that is one thing we all need to learn. Is the eternal salvation of God's children my business or is it God's business?... If it is God's business then it is none of mine and does God want me in his business that is according to HIS OWN WILL AND PURPOSE?... Not in my Bible!... To each his own!... Brother Glen :confused:
     

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