What About Unions

Discussion in 'Politics' started by OldRegular, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. OldRegular

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    On the General Baptist Discussion Forum the question of Unions came up. I thought I would start a thread for discussion. If you don't want to wade through the introductory discussion skip to the bolded part where I try to make my point.

    On this Board and on Fox News Unions are generally spoken of with contempt. I suspect that many speaking in that manner have no real knowledge of what unions have done for this country. They only see that unions are being universally blamed for the countries ills and are happy to participate.

    I am not a member of a union. Engineers rarely form unions because they really have no bargaining power. I might join a union if I worked at a job where unions had a presence. The only way I would be coerced into joining a union would be if that were the only way to feed my family.

    I grew up in coal mining country during the Roosevelt Depression. My father worked in the coal mines at that time and for a time served as a local union president. The United Mine Workers president at that time was John l. Lewis. I sincerely believe he had the interests of the mine workers at heart, perhaps the last union leader to do so. I will insert at this time that we were Republicans at a time and place where Republicans were looked at like most on this Forum look at unions. My Dad was a strong supporter of the Taft Hartley Law; look it up if you don't know what it does.

    It is a fact that mine workers were treated like dogs before the union came along. For those who hate unions they might spend some time reading about the conflict in West Virginia coal fields in the 1920's [I believe, could have been earlier.] when the unions were being organized. There was a lot of violence and in West Virginia, Eastern Kentucky, and southwest Virginia the government was not on the side of the unions.

    One incident before I discuss a little philosophy about management.unions. My Dad and all his family were Members of the Old Regular Baptist Church as is Old Union Brother. My Grandfather and 3 uncles were preachers in that Church. THere was an Old Regular preacher from Jellico, Tennessee, last name Musick, who used to visit our home. He was a union organizer, had a son same age as some older brothers. Elder Musick lost this son and at least one other son to anti union violence.

    Now to a little reality about union management relations. Unions were generally organized and entered into contracts with management through collective bargaining. I am not going to try to discuss all the laws etc that were passed in regard to this process simply because I don't know all that much. i do know that Taft Hartley made closed shop illegal, allowed union shops, and allowed states to ban union shops, the Right to Work Law. All that is a little history and mostly from memory.

    Unions and management bargain and enter into some contract under which the union will work for a period of time. The unions get nothing that is not agreed to by management. There have been a number of egregious examples in recent years of the excessive wages/benefits that union members have. Just keep in mind that, unless the government intervenes, the union gets nothing that management did not give them.

    THe United Auto Workers have been blamed for the problems that have occurred with the big three auto companies and to some degree rightly so. But again the unions got nothing either in pay, benefits, or work rules that management did not give them. As long as the car companies could sell everything they made they simply passed the cost on to the consumer; but then came the Japanese cars and stuff hit the fan. My point is that it is completely unfair to place all the blame on the unions. Sorry management is just as much to blame, perhaps more so.

    Now to public service unions and I am not as much speaking of teachers unions as other workers. Here the problem is even worse as has been revealed by the bankruptcies in certain cities, principally California. The politicians gave the unions all they wanted and passed the cost on to the taxpayer. Who is to blame? The politicians. Is there anyone who works for a living that would not like to make more? So the problem is not all the unions,. I believe most of the blame lies with weak management and spineless politicians.
     
  2. OldRegular

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    No one has seen fit to comment yet but I hope that those who open this thread are at least reading what I have said.

    I would point out that at this time I am neither pro or anti union. I can see the good that some unions have done in the past. i believe at this time that are all led by corrupt leaders and are shills for the leftist democrat party.

    I am against government employee unions for the simple reason the politicians will give them whatever they want and all that at taxpayer expense.

    Union wages are frequently blamed for industry moving out of the country. I believe the biggest reason is the work rules imposed on management by the unions. Of course management did not have to cave. A perfect example of the stupid work rules that management has agreed to is the Hostess Bread Co.. The work rules would not allow the same truck to haul both bread and cookies or cakes. That is insanity.

    The company for which I worked most of my career did not like unions though a few of their plants were union. I believe the primary reason was that the company did not want the employee deciding work rules/practices since their wages were essentially standard for union or nonunion plants, varying only by the region of the country where the plant was located..
     
  3. convicted1

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    I was born union, raised union, and will die union. Do unions have their shortcomings? Sure. Humans run them, and whenever money comes into play, so does greed.


    That being said, the Sago and Upper Big Branch mines disasters were under Massey's ownership....and also Don Blankenship's.....and it was proven they were to be blamed for those miner's death. FWIW, Massey was a non-union entity. Alpha Natural Resources owns Massey's mines now....another "scab" entity....
     
  4. OldRegular

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    "Scab" is a pejorative that is unbecoming a Christian. All mines are subject to state and Federal {OSHA} inspection. What culpability do they have in these mine disasters? Do you have statistics showing that union mines are safer than nonunion mines. So please don't mimic the guy from Washington state with your use of the word "Scab".

    THe unions once performed an invaluable service, particularly the UMW. The best thing the UMW did was not fight against mechanization thereby drastically reducing the number of coal miners. Currently unions have become simply a money bag for the leftist democrat party, the party of death, which you proudly support. Frankly I would rather be called a Scab and fight against the party of death than be a union member and support the party of death.
     
  5. Salty

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    Two things I would like to say about unions

    Over the years, unions have done a lot for the working man. The problem I see is that they have gotten out hand. As with anything, extremes can be a problem

    Second - I beleive it it wrong to force a person to join a union.
     
  6. convicted1

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    Well, my father-in-law worked for Marrowbone Development, when it was a "scab" mine, and when it went union. He saw firsthanded, inspectors going into their office, coming out with something in their hands, and leaving, w/o inspecting anything. He also heard that whenever an inspector made a lot of allegations, they would call Charleston...WVa's state capital......and tell them to not send that inspector back.

    BTW, just because I am a Democrat, doesn't mean I support the "party of death".
     
  7. OldRegular

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    I agree. They have really shot themselves in a vital spot.

    I agree. As I said my Dad was a member of the UMW but he was a strong believer in the Taft Hartley Law.

    South Carolina is a Right to Work State. The effort of the Obama Administration to prevent Boeing from producing the 787 in Charleston, SC is a disgrace and a vivid demonstration of the evil of either crony capitalism or crony unionism. In either case it is an attack on liberty.
     
  8. OldRegular

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    I don't understand? Are you saying the inspectors were called off after the union took over? Are you saying the democrat government in WVa is corrupt.

    Just consider your use of the pejorative "SCAB". Anyone who is not union is a "SCAB" regardless of their opinion about unions. So according to you I am a "SCAB". Using your logic anyone who is a democrat is a supporter of the PARTY of DEATH.
     
  9. exscentric

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    "I am against government employee unions for the simple reason the politicians will give them whatever they want and all that at taxpayer expense."

    Hogwash would be one of the nicer terms OR employees would use to describe your comment. No raises in three years, paying more for less health care each year, no cost of living raises. forced unpaid days off etc. all the while wanting more and more work out of the less employees due to lay offs etc.

    Ya the politicals give em what they want. :) better look around a little more. Unions are not as worthwhile as they once were.
     
  10. OldRegular

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    There is another word for the stuff you are handing out.

    So stop your whining! The reason your health care costs are going up is because of Obamacare and that is a fact.
     
  11. convicted1

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    No. Prior to Marrowbone Development becoming union, the state mining inspectors would do this. They would go into the office, come out with something, get in the vehicle and not inspect one thing. My father-in-law witnessed it firsthand. BTW, he's a pastor, and one of the most honest people I know....and I've known him for 10 yrs.



    What I mean by "scab" is that those who were fighting for the right to unionize their job, and while on strike, others would cross their picket lines and work anyways. Then the mining companies who would cut corners and safety, just to save a few bucks, are really the "scabs". Massey had two mine explosions in WVa, where 12(I think it was 12) at Sago, and 29 at Upper Big Branch mine, lost their lives because they violated safety regulations implemented by OSHA.


    You really need to step away from the "Politics" forum, Brother Baker......take a break from it. I agree with you about the gay rights and abortions.....I agree with you, but the Republicans wanted to give senior citizens a $15,000 voucher per year. And after they leave the senate, if they live 50 years after they leave, will have 100% coverage.

    One of my dad's younger brothers is the biggest Republican "homer" out there, and even he stated a year or two ago the GOP was trying to take everything he had......Neither side is for us, but for the big business people......just the GOP wants to send their jobs overseas for cheaper labor, little to no $$$ to shell out for health insurance, and bigger profits.
     
  12. exscentric

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    What eva you say! Ignore several points to "make" your "point" - okay. Not whining either just laying some reality to the discussion.
     
    #12 exscentric, Feb 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2013
  13. OldRegular

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    So you are saying the democrat administration in Charleston is corrupt.

    I know what a "Scab" is in the mind of a union man. But to me it is an unwarranted pejorative. In the OP I indicated what I knew about the UMW under John L Lewis, what they had done for the miners, and my admiration for him. I told that my Dad was a UMW man and a minor official at one time. Yet the tone of your posts was that I was a "Scab" because I said unions are corrupt and fund raisers for the democrat party. Richard Trumka, former UMW president, and now AFL-CIO president is perhaps the most corrupt of all. My Dad was a union man but still his integrity would not let him be a democrat with their collectivist philosophy.


    This is a politics Forum!

    You throw out $15,000 and do not say what it is. Can you provide a source for the $15,000. Can you tell me what it represents. Otherwise I cannot accept it.

    That argument is more than a little silly. Who signed NAFTA into law? I am not naive about either political party but it is a fact that the bankers from Wall Street are more inclined to the democrats than to the Republican Party. The Republican Party is trying to do something to keep Social Security and Medicare from going bankrupt. It makes no difference to me personally because of my age but it will to you. The Republicans in the House have gotten zero help from the democrats and all they get for their effort is demagogic statements like you made above. In 4 years Obama has increased the national debt by 60% or $6 trillion but still insists there is no debt problem. The man intends to bankrupt the country and it is people like you who allow it.

    The democrat party is the party of death. At the recent convention they endorsed once again unlimited abortion and on one evening they spent considerable time celebrating the slaughter of 55 million unborn babies. The law called Obamacare contains a death panel, a committee that will set standards for acceptable medical care. Just as a "Scab" supports his right to work a democrat supports this party of death. Sadly that is the truth and as long as people like you blind themselves to the truth there is no hope for this country. I can understand the unbeliever, the pagan, not caring one way or the other about abortion and the death panel and claiming there are more important issues. I cannot understand a professing Christian making this claim as some on this Board have done. God will not allow the slaughter of 55 million unborn babies to go unpunished. God will not allow those groups who claim to be Churches to endorse homosexuality to go unpunished. At least that is my opinion and I believe history bears me out.
     
  14. convicted1

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    Could be....very possible.....$$$ corrupts Reps, Dems, and Inds.....



    Maybe I painted with too broad a brush. I agree that unions can be corrupt. I never stated otherwise. Whenever/wherever $$$ comes into play, corruption soon follows. I agree withyou on Trumka. And Lewis was truly a good union leader from what I've heard and read.



    No kidding.....LOL...j/k....

    http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/thoughts-about-health-care-under-the-ryan-plan/

    http://politicalcorrection.org/mobile/factcheck/201112200007

    If your man, Paul Ryan, had his way, while you were patting him on his back, he'd be sticking a knife in yours.




    I agree with you about NAFTA. I, unlike you, am not totally blind to my party's shortcomings. You point a finger at the Democrats shortcomings, and stick you head in the sand, or your nose in the air when the Republicans shortcomings are exposed.


    Look, for the 16th time, I agee with you on the abortion and gay rights issues....give it a rest, please.

    Now, let's look at the death panels you are talking about. Now, regardless of age, everyone needs adequate healthcare. I have worked in the hospital field for over twelve years, so I feel that I can tell you something. I have worked at two different hospitals, and both have nursing homes within five minutes of each other. I have seen the elderly not get adequate healthcare, and whenever they got the sniffles, these N.H. would have them sent to the ER. Too many times they didn't want to be bothered with them, so they'd send them our way. I have seen families who, for the sake of a check, have the "loved" one as on a full code status......if the flat-line, it's chest compressions, intubation, medication to stimulate their heart, etc.....and them 85+ and bedfast for years.

    If someone is past recovery, and they have no viable life....I'm sorry, but someone whose been bedfast with Alzheimer's for years, isn't having a quality of life. But, the families want to hang onto them either out of greed....loving them and not wanting them to die...and that's greed.......or out of GREED...keep'em alive just for their check.

    We have a patient who's 97, and comes in about twice a month for blood. However, he is out working on the roof of his garage, doing productive things, and has a very good quality of life. By any means necessary, give him help to keep him here.

    But if someone is 97, has been bedfast for years, and hasn't known anyone for 15 years, I'm, but make them comfortable, and let nature take it's course. It's like going to the junkyard and finding an old "rustbucket" that's been there for twenty years and putting a $5,000 set of rims and tires on it.

    I know that when I get to where my life is confined to a bed, and not knowing anything/anyone, with deterioated health, I'm gonna be an DNR(do not resusciatate{sp?}). I think the death panels are aimed at those who have been past good health, and not knowing anyone....but I could be wrong.
     
  15. convicted1

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    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/dec/18/politifact-lie-year-death-panels/


    Politifact gave Palin the "lie of the year" for this.....


    http://factcheck.org/2009/08/palin-vs-obama-death-panels/


    http://factcheck.org/2012/04/death-panels-redux/



    Here's two well respected, and usually unbiased websites that refute the "death panel" theory. Palin lied, the Reps swallowed it hook, line, and sinker, and she cost McCain.
     
  16. convicted1

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    Oh, and for the Reps wanting to keep SS and medicare from going bankrupt, you're correct. Rick Santorum, a guy I really liked at first, was wanting to cut into it, even those who were already on it.
     
  17. Bro. James

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    A union contract is not made among gentlemen. The schism is: give us a bigger share of the profit or we walk out. When skilled labor walks off the job, the employer has a problem with normal operations. This also applies to sanitation engineers. A strike of trash pickers can have serious consequences in a city.

    Henry Ford started making autos without unionized labor. That did not last.

    Unions have been good and bad. Combine unions, CETA, affirmative action and govt. contracts--you get a disaster in terms of quality control.

    Shut off the funds and start over.

    Peace,

    Bro. James
     
  18. OldRegular

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    Liberals have a bad habit of arguing with against the truth.
     
  19. OldRegular

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    You make some good points Bro. James.

    My personal opinion is not that unions have necessarily outlived their usefulness but that the leadership is generally corrupt.

    I would say next that management has been and still is corrupt in their dealings with union bosses as long as they can pass the costs on to a gullible public,

    I would say on the basis of the facts which have come out in recent years about the pay and benefits of public workers that the politicians are the most corrupt of all management. When a public employee can retire in their early 50's at essentially full pay that is political corruption yielding to union pressure at the expense of the taxpayer. California is the worst example of this but I have posted web sites showing that Federal workers are now making almost twice that of the private employee.

    I can remember years ago when the auto union workers were blamed for the poor quality of American made cars. That was false. The cars produced by American workers in foreign owned and operate plants is vivid evidence that it was not the sole fault of the union worker. It was primarily the fault of management. They allowed sloppy work as long as they could sell the product. There is a BMW plant in Spartanburg, SC.; there is a Mercedes plant in Alabama. Neither of these plants are unionized and neither of these companies produce a sloppy product. The American worker is able to produce what management requires. The same could be said of the Japanese and South Korean plants in this country.

    So instead of blindly blaming unions for the country's ills let management get their share of the blame.

    And then according to convicted1 there are always "Scabs" to do the work during a strike.
     
  20. OldRegular

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    I would say that for those already on SS and MC there should be means testing. I realize it is unfair but neither is paying Federal income tax at a marginal rate of 40% while others pay nothing or get a credit card, medical care, and a cell phone for not working.

    I would not want to work at a job picking fruit or vegetables. I did not want to work in a coal mine. So I got an education and left that part of the country. However as far as I am concerned work beats welfare anytime. I can remember when it was considered disgraceful for people to accept welfare. The democrats have created a perpetual welfare class in this country {Some even have government jobs.} and that is a disgrace.
     

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