What are the implications of current brain research to the C/A forum?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Sep 12, 2003.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Any thoughts?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  2. Yelsew

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    Expound for us!
     
  3. tyndale1946

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    Frogman... Are you saying some of these brethren put their mouth in gear or their fingers to the keyboard before they put their brain in action [​IMG] ... In otherwords they don't think before they speak :eek: ... IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!... Brother Dallas?... Huuuuummmmmm!... I was thinking the same thing [​IMG] ... Brother Glen :rolleyes:
     
  4. Frogman

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    That has crossed my mind at times and probably did when I wrote this, however I was serious in asking the question.

    It seems that the predominant argument is that belief or faith in Christ is equal to any other intellectual process man possesses at least this is what I understand from the Arminian theology.

    I have been reading lately some research intitiated in 1983 I believe by Howard Gardner. In this there is evidence that the human mind is not stagnant after reaching a specified developmental level but really possesses the quality called 'plasticity'. What this means is contrary to traditional thought on learning in developmental steps such as climbing a ladder, humans really move into higher levels of thinking and learning by working along a 'web' similar to a spider's web. Just as the spider sitting on his web, the unstimulated learners remain in a safe spot until the 'web' (in this case the human mind) is stimulated.

    The implications of this is that humans do not posses a specific level [high in some and low in others] level of intelligence, but all humans posses intelligence and the degree of this intelligence is not measureable by anything except discovering the optimum stimulant for each individual. Once this is done the learner moves from his/her safe spot out onto the higher levels of the web [always ideally supported by the structure of previous information and knowledge---the strings of the web].

    Gardner identified in his initial study, seven intelligences. Since this initial research was released he has added to it an eight--called a 'naturalist' intelligence.

    The various levels now identified can be found at the following link:

    Multiple Intelligences

    Now, Gardner is considering the possibility of adding a ninth intelligence to the list. You can find what this new one is by reading the article.

    The implications I see here is evident, IMHO, that humans are of course very capable of learning in the ways described by the research. What I want to discuss is the implications, if any, of the ninth level of intelligence.

    I posted this a few days ago and did not provide any information because I wanted everyone to have some time to develop a train of thought in regards to what is needed in this discussion.

    What are the issues?

    What do these issues imply?

    Then and only then what are the positions these issues can support?

    There are several pov's represented in this forum. These range from the hard-sheller sometimes called 'hyper' to the free-willer sometimes accused of wanting to do away with the work of God at Calvary.

    We know in reality none of this is true. A believer who is supporting the free will of man is a believer none the less and is just as thankful for the humility and resurrection of Christ as any other, the same is true for the one who sees no Biblical basis to engage in missions by any means available...and we don't want to forget the universalist...though I cannot comment on that view as I understand very little about it.

    I would like an identification of the issues before we dig in our positions.

    First I will begin:

    From where is faith found in man, in the intelligence or in the spirit?

    Where is belief located?

    Can we by scripture alone prove that either of these are arrived at in accordance with any one of the intelligence levels identified {including the ninth}.

    Brethren,
    I know this is alot of information and has been alot of reading if you have read this far let me apologize for this, though it is necessary.

    In the future I will limit posts and replies on this thread from myself, however, I felt like the above information was necessary to establish the proper background and the thoughts I was having regarding current brain research.

    I hope as many as will shall be stimulated by this and thus will crawl forward from their safe spot to engage in a mutually edifying discussion.

    May God Bless all of us spiders :D

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]

    [ September 15, 2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
  5. Frogman

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    Are there not any spiders out there?

    I know this thread has an ominus sounding title, but it is really simple.

    No interest? Everyone satisfied with their safe spot?

    [​IMG] beauty
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    Gardner said in reference to the ninth intelligence which I find the most interesting being of the Christian mindset... Are there any other abilities you're considering calling intelligences?

    Well, there may be an existential intelligence that refers to the human inclination to ask very basic questions about existence. Who are we? Where do we come from? What's it all about? Why do we die? We might say that existential intelligence allows us to know the invisible, outside world. The only reason I haven't given a seal of approval to the existential intelligence is that I don't think we have good brain evidence yet on its existence in the nervous system—one of the criteria for an intelligence.

    I find no problem with this because according to the scripture we do not first initiate the ninth one as it is placed in us by God himself. We may not believe to follow God even when he has brought us to the knowledge of him being caught up in things we see as logical to us but then ALL things have to have a starting point and God plainly writes in us his laws in our hearts and minds... He says I am your God and you are my people!... Question can we believe on our own without the intervention from God?... I say no!

    Some would say ah but the devils believe in God and tremble as the scriptures say... This is true but the devil are on a different plane than we are and are spiritual beings and dwell in the supernatual whereas we are mortal and don't!... So where does our belief in God come from... It comes straight from God!... Unless God brings and plants that belief in us we have none!... I believe without reservation that ALL God's children that Jesus Christ died for WILL be saved eternally and none WILL be lost... Will God unwrite what he has written in our hearts and mind?... Is his grace based on him alone or is it dependent upon what the sinner does with it?... And if you can fall from it or lose is it worth what God wrote with his own hand and say you are my people?... That is his promise and his promises are sure.... SEALED WITH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!

    Can you rebel and lose your fellowship with God?... Sure the Bible if full of stories of those who did!... But was their eternal salvation EVER in question... NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Not only does God propose it... He does it and carries it out for his purpose and his glory and NONE can stay his hand!... The potter has power over the clay and I have NEVER known a lump of clay to form itself... In his Sovereign Love and Mercy God SAVED those that belong to him and none else and in ALL our human logic we can not understand his grace because unless our God planted the free gift of eternal life in us we would go the way of those who are not his... ALL OF US!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  7. Frogman

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    Bro. Glen,
    IMHO, you have struck the essence of the argument. That which we possess is not discerned intellectually. This is the point I wanted to make in beginning this thread. I wanted to lead those who propose it to this conclusion from their own thoughts.

    While intelligence and knowledge can be effected by experience and what each individual is interested in, that which is spiritual is stimulated only by the direct intervention of the Spirit of God and the child of God does not learn his position through a series of lessons developed and devised by man, but alone through the visitation of the Holy Spirit of God.

    Thanks for posting your thoughts. I would like to engage an Arminian or free-willer in this, but I guess whether or not they respond is their choice.

    I think it is/would be easy to attempt to make a comparison of this type of intellectual thought to that of the spirit, but it is not Biblically correct to do so.

    Have a great day!

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  8. tyndale1946

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    Btw... If I am not mistaken and I'm sure those enlightened in this area will correct me if I am wrong... Scientist have discovered a part of the brain that has no function that they can measure and they don't know what it's function is but it is there... Maybe this is where the ninth intelligence resides and will we ever be able to measure the supernatural... I say a resounding YES!... Only if God gives us the knowledge to do so as he had also given us our spiritual eyes to see him and his beloved son Jesus Christ!... Amazing Grace!... How sweet the sound that SAVED a WRETCH like ME!... I once was LOST!... But NOW I'm FOUND... Was BLIND!... But NOW!... I SEE!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  9. Gina B

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    That was cute! :D
    Thanks for the post and the link, that's interesting stuff!
    I wouldn't agree with Bro. Glen on existential evidence. Who we are, why we're here, why we die, what's it all about can be answered in very practical terms that have nothing to do with the spiritual.
    I'd also add to this guy's list False Intelligence, or Imaginative Intelligence. [​IMG] LOL Something like that! It would be the belief in falsehoods as truth, such as those who believe in pink flying elephants or that Joseph Smith was a prophet. It can't be classified as a type of existential OR spiritual intelligence if it is not true.
    1. Faith is gained from the spiritual and adopted into one's intelligence. Look at a child. They do not possess the mental capacity to look at existential or any other type of evidence and make a logical conclusion, yet I have met children whose pure and simple faith in God was astounding. I also think that perhaps when they reach the age of understanding that extra-spiritual intelligence children possess may be taken away. I'm not putting that out there as something I firmly believe in, right now it's just something that makes sense to me.

    2. Belief can be shaken or changed by experiences. I believe it would be located in intelligence. Logically where I placed faith and belief would place me more in an arminian mindset, but I'm not. Hmmm. There ya go, the next level...the unknown. :D

    3. No way can we prove anything at all by scripture alone, if by scripture you mean the written and visible words contained in the bible.

    Gina
     
  10. Gina B

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    Uh oh...did I kill the thread? :confused:
    Maybe it'll get more attention if you change the topic to something controversial like "Are Cals more intelligent?" :eek:
    Gina
     
  11. Yelsew

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    Gina L said,
    Faith is gained through the intellect, that is faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God! Now human faith in anything is based on knowledge of that thing. We hear of something without knowing it exists, 'the hearing' provides knowledge upon which to base faith. Faith is limited by the knowledge one has. However, that which you have full knowledge of requires no faith. For example: A simple chair in which you have witnessed no one sitting, requires your faith to act upon in order for you to sit on the chair. However if you see a person whom you estimate exceeds your own weight rise from that chair, you have knowledge that chair will also support your weight. Therefore you need have no faith in order for you to sit on that chair.

    Children have faith in everything because for nine months they developed in a "safe place", then were born into a "safe place", then when they "learn" (hear) the things of God from "trusted" adults, they accept what the trusted adult has given them. Therefore they do have existential evidence that God is good. The evidence is the "trusted adults". I say "trusted" because the child has no means of comparison until evil strikes and causes distrust.

    Just as belief can be changed by experiences, Faith, which cannot exist without belief changes in accordance with experiences and knowledge. Knowledge offsets faith! That is, that which you know requires no faith!

    That is correct, Even the written scriptures declare we are to observe the Power and Love of God through the rest of creation. The scriptures declare that we are to use our 'intellect' and "think on these things". Jesus told us to consider the lilies of the field...etc. He told us to observe the signs and know the seasons, so that we would have the knowledge required to recognize things of the spirit. Consider this, Jesus did not have the words of the bible, but he did provide the evidence upon which man could base faith in Him. We have the words of the Bible, so Jesus said, "Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe in me". Was He mistaken? Did he really mean, "have faith in me"?
     
  12. Gina B

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    Yelsew: Faith is gained through the intellect, that is faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God! Now human faith in anything is based on knowledge of that thing. We hear of something without knowing it exists, 'the hearing' provides knowledge upon which to base faith. Faith is limited by the knowledge one has. However, that which you have full knowledge of requires no faith. For example: A simple chair in which you have witnessed no one sitting, requires your faith to act upon in order for you to sit on the chair. However if you see a person whom you estimate exceeds your own weight rise from that chair, you have knowledge that chair will also support your weight. Therefore you need have no faith in order for you to sit on that chair.

    Gina: Yes, that faith is based on experience and intellect. I was speaking of spiritual faith. That type of faith is not limited by knowledge.

    Yelsew: Children have faith in everything because for nine months they developed in a "safe place", then were born into a "safe place", then when they "learn" (hear) the things of God from "trusted" adults, they accept what the trusted adult has given them. Therefore they do have existential evidence that God is good. The evidence is the "trusted adults". I say "trusted" because the child has no means of comparison until evil strikes and causes distrust.

    Gina: Do you think trust is the same as faith? How do you know an infant has any faith or trust in anyone at the moment they are born?


    Yelsew: Just as belief can be changed by experiences, Faith, which cannot exist without belief changes in accordance with experiences and knowledge. Knowledge offsets faith! That is, that which you know requires no faith!

    Gina: I have to completely disagree. Also, you contradicted yourself. You basically said "Faith requires knowledge, but if you have knowledge you do not need faith". Faith is believing in things you have no or little knowledge of. We believe in God through faith. There are no material evidences for the God we believe in. We could just as well believe in a different God with the same creative powers. We have the bible, but we also have the book of mormon, and the quran, and various other "evidences" of higher powers.


    Yelsew: We have the words of the Bible, so Jesus said, "Blessed are they who have not seen, yet believe in me". Was He mistaken? Did he really mean, "have faith in me"?

    Gina: In a way, since one must have faith to believe in something they have no evidence of. [​IMG]
     
  13. Yelsew

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    There is no such thing as "spiritual faith" Gina. All human faith resides in the human spirit. There is human faith in things of the spirit, but no such thing as spiritual faith.

    Deity has absolutely no need of faith, and for that reason Deity has no faith to give to humanity. Deity gives humanity the reasons to have faith in that which is not seen, and cannot be known in the physical, natural realm. What Deity gives to humanity for the purpose of faith is entirely of the spiritual realm. Everything physical is excluded from God's plan of Salvation of man that has at its core, FAITH.
    If you are a mother, you know the answer to that question. Having resided within the mother, the infant has a natural trust (faith) for the mother, that is, no reason to not trust. All others are "Learned and earned trusts". The father of the infant must bond with the child, but that is relatively easy because the father was with the mother while the child was in the womb. Sibling trust also comes pretty easy because siblings that show their adoration to the infant earn the infants trust.

    During this time of life, trust and faith are interchangeable regarding an infant's relationships with others. Essentially the same condition of faith that "new believers" have with God. Essentially the same condition of faith that newly-weds have in each other.

    Gina, one does not know there is a heaven until one gains the knowledge that someplace described as heaven exists. Someone tells you or you read that such a place exists. That knowledge is the knowledge that requires faith. Faith is the acceptance of that knowledge.

    If one comes from heaven and says that is where he is from, that too is knowledge that requires faith. But if you go to heaven, you no longer need faith, because the new knowledge that you have displaces the need for faith, you know from first hand knowledge.

    Yes, there are many things one can have faith in, but there is only one faith, and that is Human faith!

    Each human can have faith in many things, and human faith has many variations in intensity. One can have faith that an untested chair will support him and that is a very low intensity faith. One can have faith that there is an unseen God, and that is a higher intensity faith. When one has faith in that one living unseen God to save him from eternal damnation, that is the supreme saving faith. One can have that supreme saving faith at the same time that one has the very low intensity faith in that untested chair.

    One human cannot have faith for another human. Each human must have his/her own faith, and every one of us is fully capable of every level of faith. All faith begins with belief, If one does not believe something one will never have faith in it either.

    When one's belief in something changes, one's faith in that same something also changes! Belief and faith are inextricably interwoven one in the other.
    Gina: In a way, since one must have faith to believe in something they have no evidence of. [Smile]</font>[/QUOTE]Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But, one must believe what one reads or hears from the Word of God before one can have faith in it!
     
  14. Frogman

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    I was hoping to stimulate an intelligent discussion.

    [​IMG]
     

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