What are the true differences between the KJV and other versions?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by annsni, Sep 4, 2013.

  1. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    I have a friend arguing that of the 5,200 Greek manuscripts that exist today, 99% of the text agrees word-for-word with the 1611 King James Bible. Only 1% agree with the other Bible versions. Of course this is from Riplinger and is quite deceiving, making one think that in 99% of the text, the modern versions differ from the manuscript evidence but that's incorrect.

    So what is the true differences? How much do the KJV and MVs differ from each other, how much are insignificant differences ("Jesus Christ" vs. "Christ Jesus") and how many are more significant (the "missing verses", longer texts and harmonizations)? What is the true percentage of difference between them?
     
  2. makahiya117

    makahiya117
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0


    #1. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe only the original manuscripts
    were given by inspiration of God. There are no original manuscripts.

    KJV But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty,
    not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
    but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves
    to every man's conscience in the sight of God.


    #2. You cannot honestly say "the bible" or "all bibles" are given by inspiration of God.

    There are over 400 (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek, Syrian, Latin, German, English, French, Spanish, etc. bibles
    which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.


    #3. You cannot honestly say "the Greek N.T." or "all N.T. Greek texts"
    are given by inspiration of God.

    There are over 24 reconstructed (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek N.T. texts
    which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.


    --------------------------


    Corrupt English Bibles
    1881 RV, 1901 ASV, 1946 RSV, 1960 NASV, 1961 NWT, 1966 TEV, 1970 NAB,
    1971 LB, 1973 NIV, 1979 NKJV, 1985 NJB, 1989 NRSV, 1995 NASV, 1995 CEV
    * N.Y.I.T. - 290 corrupt English translations are listed

    translated from Corrupt Reconstructed Greek N.T. Texts
    1582 Jesuit N.T., 1657 Walton N.T. 1707 Mill N.T., 1729 Mace N.T.,
    1734 Bengal N.T., 1765 Semler N.T., 1774 Griesbach N.T., 1776 Hardwood N.T.,
    1782 Mattaei N.T., 1787 Alter N.T., 1789 Birch N.T., 1842 Lachmann N.T.,
    1857 Tregelles N.T., 1870 Tischendorf’s N.T., 1872 Alford N.T., 1881 Westcott & Hort N.T.,
    1898 Nestle N.T., 1966 United Bible Society N.T.

    give precedence to the minority Alexandrian Corrupt Texts
    150 AD Tatian Diatesseron, 200 AD Clement Manuscripts,
    225 AD Origen Hexapla, 331 AD Vaticanus Manuscript,
    400 AD Jerome Latin Vulgate, 450 AD Codex Alexandrinus,
    450 AD Codex Ephraemi

    99% of the 5,500+ N.T. manuscripts support the readings
    of the majority received Syrian Greek N.T. Texts
    1516 Erasmus N.T., 1534 Colinaeus N.T., 1546 Stephanus N.T.,
    1598 Beza N.T., 1599 Polyglot Bible, 1624 Elzeir N.T.,
    1869 Album of Languages

    and the readings of the original English Bibles
    Anglo-Saxon Bibles, Wycliffe Bible, Tyndale Bible, Coverdale Bible,
    Geneva Bible, Bishop Bible, AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
    and billions of reprinted KJV Holy Bibles.

    Many have corrupted scripture including manuscripts,
    reconstructed N.T. Greek Texts and English translations.


    2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God:
    but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
     
    #2 makahiya117, Sep 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2013
  3. makahiya117

    makahiya117
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0
    The only begotten Son is removed in corrupt bibles.
    Jesus Christ is not the only Son of God.
    Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

    KJV 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy,
    great is the mystery of godliness:
    God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels,
    preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    KJV Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth,
    which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    KJV Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,
    and Satan came also among them.

    KJV Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together,
    and all the sons of Godshouted for joy ?

    KJV Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
    they are the sons of God.

    KJV 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God,
    and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
    but we know that, when he shall appear,
    we shall be like him;
    for we shall see him as he is.

    KJV John 3:16 For God so loved the world,
    that he gave his only begotten Son,
    that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    NIV - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
    that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    BBE - For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son,
    so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life.
    CJB - For God so loved the world that he gave his only and unique Son,
    so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life,
    instead of being utterly destroyed.
    ESV - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son,
    that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
    GW - God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son
    so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.
    GNT - For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son,
    so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.
    HNV - For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son,
    that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    CSB - For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son,
    so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
    LEB - For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son,
    in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
    NCV - God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son
    so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life.
    NIRV - God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son.
    Anyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.
    NLT - For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son,
    so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
    NRS - For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son,
    so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
    RSV - For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son,
    that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
    MSG - This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son.
    And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him,
    anyone can have a whole and lasting life.
    TNIV - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
    that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    WNT - For so greatly did God love the world that He gave His only Son,
    that everyone who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages.
    WEB - For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son,
    that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.







    * N.Y.I.T. - 448 corrupt readings are listed






    .
     
    #3 makahiya117, Sep 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2013
  4. makahiya117

    makahiya117
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lucifer is changed to morning star in corrupt bibles.
    Jesus Christ is the morning star, not Lucifer.

    KJV Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
    I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    KJV Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
    how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    NIV - How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!
    You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations.

    NA - How have you ben fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!
    How are you cut down to the ground, you who mowed down the nations.

    CEV - You, the bright morning star, have fallen from the sky!
    You brought down other nations; now you are brought down.

    GN - King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven!
    In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.

    GW - How you have fallen from heaven, you morning star, son of the dawn!
    How you have been cut down to the ground, you conqueror of nations!

    NAS - How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
    You have been cut down to the earth! You who have weakened the nations!
     
  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    2
    This person is misinformed and uninformed. No where near 99% of the text of 5,200 Greek manuscripts agrees word-for-word with the KJV's New Testament.

    The 1550 Stephanus edition of the Textus Receptus based on 15 Greek manuscripts and the printed Greek NT text of the Complutensian Polyglot had over 2,000 marginal notes, listing some of the textual differences in just those few.

    The Textus Receptus editions added some readings from the Latin Vulgate that were found in no Greek NT manuscripts. The Textus Receptus editions included some conjectures introduced by Erasmus or Beza that are not found in Greek NT manuscripts.
     
  6. makahiya117

    makahiya117
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0




    The Lord preserved his words.

    Inspiration, predestination, providence and preservation continued throughout final canonization
    (books and words) and publication of scripture.


    Believers will believe, doubters will doubt, and haters will hate.


    KJV The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace
    of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
    thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.







    .
     
  7. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    One of the challenges is that in comparison to better researched and better resourced contemporary translations, the KJV (1611) presents an substantially different text at a number of points.

    It adds at least 17 verses to the text of the NT that do not occur in the best manuscripts and removes, or corrupts, several verses that Erasmus didn't have Greek manuscripts for and had to back translate from Latin.

    This isn't to say the KJV is a bad version of the Bible, well at least not its last 1769 update. It is to say that we understand more about the Bible and textual issues today than we did in 1769, and definitely far more than 1611.

    It is to point out that the KJV is, like so many things, flawed due to the humanity of its translators. But it isn't irrevocably flawed, it is helpful. It simply should not be viewed as the only legitimate translation.
     
  8. Logos1560

    Logos1560
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    2
    lucifer=morning star in the 1500's and 1600's

    Evidently, you are uninformed about the historical evidence concerning the meaning of "Lucifer" in the 1500's and in the 1600's.

    Are you claiming that Martin Luther's 1534 German Bible was a "corrupt" Bible, even though it was one of the sources that influenced the making of the KJV through William Tyndale's and Miles Coverdale's use of it?

    The 1534 Luther’s German Bible, which is on the KJV-only line of good Bibles, has “morgen stern” [morning star] at Isaiah 14:12. In his lectures on Isaiah concerning this verse, Martin Luther indicated that the Hebrew word “denotes the morning star, called Lucifer and the son of Dawn” (Luther’s Works, Vol. 16, p. 140). According to this translation of his own comments, Luther’s rendering was likely the result of the influence of the Latin Vulgate or at the very least his rendering “morning star“ was intended to mean the same as “Lucifer.” Of the earlier English Bibles of which the KJV was a revision, the 1535 Coverdale’s Bible first used “Lucifer” at Isaiah 14:12. Coverdale is said to have translated primarily from the German with guidance from the Latin, and he is not known to have had a manuscript copy of the old Wycliffe‘s Bible. Is it possible that Coverdale’s rendering “Lucifer” was his translation for Luther’s German Bible’s “morgen stern?” Does this evidence suggest that the rendering “Lucifer” was first introduced into the English Bible from the direct or indirect influence of the Latin Vulgate?

    At the end of Isaiah 14, the 1549 edition of Matthew’s Bible has some notes that include these words: “Lucifer, the morning star, which he calleth the child of the morning, because it appeared only in the morning.”

    The marginal note in the 1560 and 1599 editions of the Geneva Bible for this word included the following: "for the morning star that goeth before the sun is called Lucifer."

    These two notes from two pre-1611 English Bibles that are on the KJV-only view’s line of good Bibles provide clear credible evidence concerning the meaning of the word "Lucifer" in English in the 1500's.

    The 1657 English translation of the 1637 Dutch States-General Version and Dutch Annotations also indicated this meaning with its rendering "O morning-star" at Isaiah 14:12.


    What did the KJV translators themselves mean by the choice of the word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12? The 1611 KJV gives in its margin the literal meaning or acceptable alternative translation for "Lucifer" as "daystar." The KJV translators were aware of the marginal note in the Geneva Bible, and they would have recognized that their marginal note at this verse would have associated this meaning “daystar” or “morning star” with this rendering “Lucifer.“ D. A. Waite seemed to suggest that alternative translations in the marginal notes of the 1611 N. T. were “merely synonyms of words that could have been used rather than the ones chosen to put into the text itself” so would he say the same about the marginal notes of the 1611 O. T.?” (Fundamentalist Distortions, p. 18). In a sermon, KJV translator Lancelot Andrewes referred to "St Peter's Lucifer in cordibus [daystar in your hearts]" (Hewison, Selected Writings, p. 112). Clearly, KJV translator Lancelot Andrewes used the word Lucifer in his sermon with this understood meaning “daystar.“ Daystar is Old English for morning star. A 1672 edition of the KJV has the following note at Isaiah 14:12: “for the morning-star that goeth before the sun is called Lucifer.“ Thus, several credible sources from the 1500’s and 1600’s clearly establish how this word “Lucifer” was commonly used and understood in that time period.


    The 1828 Webster's Dictionary defined daystar as following: "The morning star, Lucifer, Venus; the star which precedes the morning light." In her 1997-1998 catalogue, Riplinger claimed that the 1828 Webster's Dictionary "defines words as they were used during the writing of the KJV 1611." The 1992 Roget's International Thesaurus listed as synonyms: "morning star, day star, Lucifer, Phosphor, Phosphorus" (p. 757). Rodale’s Synonym Finder listed the following as synonyms for morning star: “daystar, bright planet; Venus, Lucifer, Phosphor, Phosphorus” (p. 750).

    The preponderance of evidence shows that the renderings "Lucifer," "daystar," and "morning star" were used as synonyms so that any arguments which can be validly used again the rendering "morning star" in this verse would also apply to the rendering "Lucifer." D. A. Waite wrote: “I didn’t count synonyms as being different. Synonyms are acceptable” (Central Seminary, p. 126). Waite also wrote: “What is true, is that there are usually two, three, or four English words that could correctly translate the original Hebrew or Greek Words” (Warning, p. 45). Waite may be unwilling to apply his own statements to this example. Gail Riplinger wrote: “Synonyms can be substituted; these provide the Bible’s built-in dictionary” (In Awe, p. 168). In jumping to their seeming hasty conclusions, KJV-only advocates failed to consider that a consistent application of their arguments could actually harm the KJV.

    The old 1300’s Wycliffe's Bible made from the Latin Vulgate may have been the first English Bible to introduce the Latin word "lucifer" into English at Isaiah 14:12. The 1395 edition of the Wycliffe Bible had “Lucifer” more than once since it was also used at Job 38:32: “Whether thou bringest forth Lucifer, that is, day star, in his time, and makest evening star to rise on the sons of earth.“ The Oxford English Dictionary pointed out at its entry word Lucifer the following: "The Latin word was adopted in all the English versions down to 1611" (IX, p. 81). This source noted that this word was “used as a proper name of the morning star” (Ibid.).
     
  9. makahiya117

    makahiya117
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0

    I'm 18 yrs postdoctoral Ed.D. in higher education, what I post I wrote.

    The Record Theory independently answers the questions of final authority
    and final canonization (books and words). The dynamic Purified Text Theory
    supports the Record Theory, demonstrated categorically and conclusively
    in the manuscript evidence, bible canonization, bible doctrine,
    billions of bibles and computational linguistics.


    -------------


    O.T. Masoretic
    N.T. Manuscripts 1st - 18th Century

    Origenis Hexaplorum
    Codex Vaticanus
    Codex Sinaiticus
    Codex Ambrosiano
    Codex Alexandrianus
    Codex Boernerianus
    Codex Washingtonianus

    1522 Erasmus Greek New Testament
    1524 Hebrew Old Testament
    1534 Tyndale Holy Bible
    1537 Matthew Holy Bible
    1540 Coverdale Great Holy Bible
    1546 Stephanus Greek New Testament
    1549 The Byble Cranmer’s Prologue
    1560 Geneva Holy Bible
    1595 Bishop Holy Bible
    1598 Beza Greek New Testament

    1599 Nuremberg Polyglot Bible
    Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, Latin, French, Italian, Spanish,
    English, German, Danish, Bohemian, Polish

    1611 KJV Holy Bible
    1613 KJV Holy Bible
    1728 KJV Holy Bible
    1764 KJV Holy Bible
    1769 KJV Holy Bible
    1773 KJV Holy Bible
    1842 KJV Holy Bible

    86 Bible Translations
    15 Bible Commentaries
    14 Word Dictionaries

    80 Historical Authors
    40 Research Authors
    60 World Religions

    350 Universities and Liberal Arts Colleges
    90 Bible Colleges
    70 Theological Seminaries
    35 Technical Institutes
    27 Business and Fine Arts Colleges

    90 Educational Consultants
    16 Educational Licensing and Accreditation Associations
    180 Educational Publishers
     
  10. Logos1560

    Logos1560
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    2
    There is no one true percentage of difference between them. The percentage would also vary, depending of whether or not very minor differences that do not affect the translating are included.

    The percentage would also have to vary depending upon which one of the twenty or more varying editions of the Textus Receptus was compared to which one of the varying editions of the Critical Text. The percentage would also vary if one of the two editions of the Greek Majority Text was used.

    There are some textual differences and many translational differences just between the pre-1611 English Bibles of which the KJV is a revision and the KJV. The reason for those textual differences is because of the fact of the textual differences between the varying editions of the Textus Receptus that the different translators had used. If Wycliffe's Bible is included as some KJV-only advocates include it, there would be many more textual differences.

    Several of the early pre-1611 English Bibles of which the KJV is a revision do not have some whole verses and other clauses added in the KJV such as Mark 11:26, Mark 15:3c, Luke 17:36, John 8:6c, John 8:9b, John 8:59c, John 19:38c, James 4:6b, 1 John 2:23b, Revelation 18:23a, and Revelation 21:26.
     
  11. Logos1560

    Logos1560
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    2
    Your unclear and unexplained theories do not answer any questions.
     
  12. makahiya117

    makahiya117
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0

    KJV Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself ?




    .
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,410
    Likes Received:
    328
    Mak: You didn't cite William Tyndale's verion of John 3:16. I will do that for you know in updated spelling:

    "For God so loveth the world that he hath given his only son that none that believe in him should perish : but should have everlasting life."

    Tyndale knew that begotten was not the right choice.

    You really have to rethink a number of things. The Wycliffe Bibles (there were two editions) were based on the Vulgate. And you know that the Vulgate was not based on the exact texts that the KJV revisers used.
     
  14. Logos1560

    Logos1560
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    2
    Compare Tyndale's and KJV

    According to a consistent application of your own exact words or claims, are you in effect saying that 99% of the Greek NT manuscripts support the readings of William Tyndale's 1534 English New Testament translated from a Textus Receptus edition?

    Matthew 5:22 in God's word in 1534 as found in Tyndale's English translation of the Textus Receptus
    But I say unto you, whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of judgment. Whosoever sayeth unto his brother Raca, shall be in danger of a council. But whosoever sayeth thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    Mark 11:26 [no text in Tyndale's for this verse]

    [the Mark 11:26 found in the KJV is not found in Tyndale's because the verse was not in the Textus Receptus editions that Tyndale had available, the second and/or third editions of Erasmus]

    Mark 16:18a in Tyndale's English translation of the Textus Receptus
    and shall kill serpents

    Luke 2:22 in Tyndale's English translation of the Textus Receptus
    And when the time of their purification (after the law of Moses) was come, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord.

    Luke 2:27 in Tyndale's 1534 English translation from a Textus Receptus edition
    And he came by inspiration into the temple. And when the father and mother brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law.

    Luke 2:33 in Tyndale's English translation from a Textus Receptus edition
    And his father and mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

    Luke 2:41 in Tyndale's
    And his father and mother went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of Easter.

    Luke 17:36 [no text in Tyndale's for this verse]

    [the Luke 17:36 found in the KJV is not found in Tyndale's because the verse was not in the Textus Receptus edition that Tyndale had available]

    John 3:16 in Tyndale's
    For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only son, that none that believe in him, should perish, but should have everlasting life.

    2 Peter 1:1 in Tyndale's
    Simon Peter a servant and an apostle of Jesus Chrst, to them which have obtained like precious faith with use in the righteousness that cometh of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    1 John 2:23
    Whosoever denieth the son hath not the father.

    [the second half of 1 John 2:23 in the KJV was not found in Tyndale's because it was not in the Textus Receptus edition that Tyndale had available]
     
  15. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    Okay. I've got a PhD in historical theology. What's your point again?


    The rub here is that the "Record Theory" is a purely subjective list of texts. You haven't proven anything but throwing together a bramble of texts and such.

    I guess we can just make up terms and terminology, spread it around the internet (including weird dating forums) and suddenly expect to be taken seriously. However, the reality is that the critical reconstructed text that supports nearly every contemporary version exceeds the limits of the TR.

    Like I've said above, the KJV isn't a bad translation. However, its age precludes it from having the best, most recent scholarship attributed to it and thus makes a helpful, though outdated text. While I have been deeply edified by the KJV, I cannot say that it qualified enough to be the sole text of all believers.
     
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,219
    Likes Received:
    194
    According to the revised version of Josh McDowell's Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Geisler and Nix (I'm not sure which of their books) say that "Only 40 lines (or 400 words) of the New Testament are in doubt whereas 764 lines of the Iliad are questioned. This five percent textual corruption compares with one-half of one percent of similar emendations in the New Testament" (p. 43). Geisler and Nix further say (in McDowell) that "only about one-eighth of all the variants had any weight, as most of them are merely mechanical matters such as spelling or style. Of the whole, then, only about one-sixtieth rise above 'trivialities,' or can in any sense be called 'substantial variation.' Mathematically this would compute to a text that is 98.33 percent pure" (ibid, 44).

    Caveat: these figures are based on the work of Westcott and Hort, which work is about 130 years old. So I'm not sure what more recent figures say, but I'll look more later in my library on textual criticism.
     
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    12,219
    Likes Received:
    194
    I saw that one! :laugh:
     
  18. Jeremiah33:3

    Jeremiah33:3
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Blessings Brothers and Sisters,

    The bible clearly tells us that wisdom comes from counting and with bible software nowadays it has never been easier to confirm what you are about to read. Below is just one example of a very limited study on the number 7 but rest assured God has made these patterns available with many other numbers. I challenge anyone to find any relevant pattern with any other version as i am about to show you from the King James Bible.

    Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

    now go to the 666th chapter of the bible Ecclesiates ch 7 which reads:
    Ecclesiastes 7:27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:

    The 490th chapter of the KJB is Psalm 12: 6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
    7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
    The 490th chapter is 70x7

    There are 11 verses in Psalm 16... First word is Preserve; last word in verse 11 evermore. Sounds like a 1611 reference to me ;-)

    Isn't it just easier to believe God not only preserves our souls for eternity but also his word.

    First words spoken by Satan to Eve in the Garden was to put into question God's word.

    Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    I would much rather answer to God believing in his power of one preserved word of truth (KJV) than to be wrong believing God has no power to preserve through translation.



    The Number Seven

    The number 7 is God’s very own number. If His Word is going to have an association with any number, it would be this one. Please read very carefully, and let the Spirit guide you into all wisdom and knowledge.

    The number 7 is associated with God, and with Divine completion and perfection. It has become apparent to most who read the scriptures, that the number 7 is the most significant number in all of the scriptures. It is the number most often mentioned when you ask someone to give them a number out of the Bible. As a person reads the Bible, they often encounter this number and conclude that there must be some very special significance to the use of this number in the passage that they are reading. With that in mind, it stands to reason that there must be some extremely important patterns that are associated with the number 7. As you read through this section, you will understand that the use of the number 7 in the King James Version, is what sets it apart from the other English translations. Here are many of the various patterns associated with the number 7.

    The very first version of the written Word of God was a little, two tablet book commonly called The Ten Commandments. They are the basis of the laws that govern this great nation. The devil is increasing his attack on the Ten Commandments because of what they represent. God has placed a very important value on the Ten Commandments, for, we find them located in the 70th chapter of the Bible, Exodus 20. The Bible mentions that they were written on "tables of stone." In fact, the Bible mentions 14 (7x2) times that they are written on tables of stone.

    As I mentioned earlier, it is very clear that the words, phrases, verses, chapters and books of the scriptures have been arranged in a perfect order. It would be impossible for men to manipulate a group of documents in this manner, especially men who, in many cases, lived thousands of years apart. One pattern that I discovered about the Divine arrangement of the Scriptures was revealed to me as I read Genesis 1:1. This verse details the beginning of the creation of God. Notice it is in the first book of the Bible, the first chapter, the first verse. The first things always belong to God. I remembered that there was another place where there is a similar passage. It is in John 1:1. Notice that it also begins with "In the beginning", that it is in chapter 1, and verse 1, but what about the book. It is not the first book of the New Testament. However, from Genesis to Luke, there are exactly 42 (7x6) books. This makes John the first book of a whole new set!

    How do we know which Bible to use? The bible you use must be the true "Word of God." We are told that Jesus is the Word of God in John 1:1. He is also given that title in I John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." It seems odd that most of the modern translations omit verse 7, or place a question mark by it in the form of a note that says that this passage does not appear in some Greek texts! The phrase "word of God" is found exactly 49 times (7x7) in the Authorized Version of the Bible!

    Jesus and the Bible are forever linked together. They are in reality, the same thing. He is truly the Word of God. The title of "the Word" that is given to Jesus is found exactly 7 times in 5 verses, including being found in I John chapter 5 verse 7! They are listed below.

    (John 1:1) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    (John 1:14) "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

    (1 John 1:1) "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;"

    (1 John 5:7) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

    (Rev 19:13) "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

    These verses are copied exactly as they are found in the Scriptures. I have added emphasis to some of the words, but have not changed them in any other form. The capitalized "w" at the beginning of "Word" was put there by the translators, but was not contained in the Greek manuscripts. Do we yet not believe that the Hand of the Almighty was on these men as they compiled and translated this sacred Book? Does the Bible you read and trust in contain this Divine pattern?

    The number 49, being the product of 7x7 is a tremendous number, for it compounds the idea of completion that we find in the number 7. This very equation is found right in the text of the scriptures themselves.

    (Lev 25:8) "And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years."

    Since this number was so important to God, it is very reasonable to assume that His Word and His Son should be associated with this number. It reveals to us in these last days, exactly who His Son is, and now reveals to us which Bible is His truly inspired Word.
     
  19. Jeremiah33:3

    Jeremiah33:3
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Bible itself states that the Word of God is a book of parables. The word "parable" is found 49 times. The word "parable" is found 7 times in the book of Numbers. All of them are found in chapters 23 and 24, and all of them are spoken by Balaam, the first time being found in verse 7 because, (Num 23:5-7) "…the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth, and said, Return unto Balak, and thus thou shalt speak. {6} And he returned unto him, and, lo, he stood by his burnt sacrifice, he, and all the princes of Moab. {7} And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel." In Psalm 78, we are told that God speaks his Word by means of the parable, (Psa 78:1-2) "Maschil of Asaph. Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. {2} I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:". And we are also told that all the words of Jesus are in parable form, (Mat 13:34) "All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:".

    It was Paul who warned us about a false gospel.

    (Gal 1:8-9) "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. {9} As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

    Notice that this warning was so strong that he mentions it twice to get the point across. There is a difference between the real Word of God, and the false gospel. Paul and Peter made sure that we understood this, because they spoke of The gospel of God. This phrase is found exactly 7 times in the scriptures. The 7th time it is used is an indication of what will happen to those who do not obey the real gospel.

    (1 Pet 4:17) "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

    As we have seen before, the Holy Spirit is represented elsewhere in the scriptures as being the "breath" of God. God tells us in Ezekiel 37:14 that He will "put my breath in you, and ye shall live." In Genesis, God did this with Adam. (Gen 2:7) "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." This is the first place we find the word "breath". Notice that it is in verse 7. The word "breath" is found 42 times. God took the number for man (6) and multiplied it by the number for God (7).

    In the two listings of the lineage of Jesus Christ is the manifestation of 7 displayed. The account given for us in Matthew chapter 1 lists 42 (6x7) generations from Abraham. The account given for us in Luke chapter 3 lists 77 generations from God who created Adam, the first "son of God", to Jesus, the "true Son of God." Jesus’ title of "Son of God" in its various forms is found 49 (7x7) times in the New Testament. It is found only one time in the Old Testament, recorded in the book of Daniel.

    (Dan 3:25) "He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

    Check your modern translations for this verse. The NIV records it as "a son of the gods." There can be no mistaking that this points to Antichrist and not the real Christ! The scriptures do attribute a "god" status to fallen angels. The word "gods" is found a total of 244 times in the scriptures. This is a product which has the number for the world (4) as its multiplier (4x61). These false "gods" are truly earthly and not heavenly.

    Our Savior is also given the title of "Son of Man". This phrase is found 196 times in the AV. This number breaks down to 49 (7x7) x 4! The last place that this phrase is used is in Revelation 14 verse 14! Check your modern translations for this same pattern. Is this title found exactly this many times in any other translation? I do not believe that it exists outside the King James Version.

    In John 12, the doubters ask Jesus a very simple question. (John 12:34) "….who is this Son of man?"

    I know who it is. It is Jesus Christ. How do I know for sure? It is all in the numbers. The phrase "Jesus Christ" is found exactly 196 times in the King James. The exact amount of times that the "Son of Man" is found!

    The unity of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Church is established exactly 7 times in the King James Bible by use of the phrase "are one." This phrase is only found 7 times in the scriptures, and, it is not associated with any other idea.

    (John 10:30) "I and my Father are one."

    (John 17:22) "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

    (Rom 12:5) "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

    (1 Cor 3:8) "Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour."

    (1 Cor 10:17) "For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."

    (1 Cor 12:12) "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ."

    (1 John 5:7) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

    Comparing this pattern with the NIV, I discovered that in Romans 12:5, this phrase has been divided up to change the meaning, in I Cor. 3:8, the phrase is missing and replaced with "have one purpose", which is not the same as being one with someone especially God. God and Satan have the same purpose, to draw all men in worship to each of them respectively, but this does not make them "one." In I Cor. 10:17, the phrase "are one bread" is replaced with "are one body", the phrase is omitted in I Cor. 12:12, and the entire verse of I John 5:7 is completely gone.

    There is a two-word phrase that is used repeatedly in the scriptures to describe the total authority and power of Almighty God. It is the phrase "most high". Truly, our God is the Most High God. He is given this title exactly 49 times in the Scriptures. Listed below, are the places where this title is either mentioned in the 7th chapter, the 7th verse, or one of its multiples.

    Genesis 14:18, Genesis 14:19, Genesis 14:20, Genesis 14:22, Psalm 7:17, Psalm 21:7, Psalm 77:10, Isaiah 14:14, Daniel 7:18, Daniel 7:22, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 7:27, Hosea 7:16, Hosea 11:7, Mark 5:7, Acts 7:48, Hebrews 7:1.

    Isaiah 14:14 is the verse where we find that Lucifer’s sole desire is to be like theMost High. Hebrews 7:1 is the 49th place that you find God’s special title of Most High.

    As we saw earlier, Jesus’ title of "Christ" is found 555 times in the Bible. We also found, according to the lineage of Luke chapter 3, that He is the 77th in line from God the Father. When we count forward to the 555th chapter of the Bible, we find that it takes us to Psalm 77! Our God is a God of perfect order, and so then is His Word. Might it also surprise you to know that the word "church" is found 77 times in the Authorized Version?!!!!

    Now, let’s take this just a little further. Let’s look at the 77th chapter of the Bible. It is Exodus 27 (20+7). This chapter has 21 (7x3) verses in it. In the 21st verse we find this passage.

    (Exo 27:21) "In the tabernacle of the congregation without the veil, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel."

    This phrase is a common phrase that refers to the church of the Old Testament. This is the first occurrence of this name for the church. It is found in the 77th chapter of the Bible, the 21st verse. This phrase is found exactly 21 (7x3) times in the Book of Exodus. It is found exactly 133 (7x19) times in the whole Bible! (19 just happens to be 7+12!)

    And the list goes on and on.

    Allow me to display some of the 7 related patterns in column form. In this first column, we will list the various titles and attributes given to God and His Son Jesus, followed by the number of times that particular phrase is mentioned in the KJV.
     
  20. Jeremiah33:3

    Jeremiah33:3
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Son of Man 196 times (49x4)
    Jesus Christ 196 times (49x4)
    Word of God 49 times (7x7)
    Son of God 49 times in the New Testament (only once in OT)
    Most High 49 times
    The Word of the Lord 245 times (49x5)
    The Word 7 times
    Husbandman 7 times
    My Beloved Son 7 times
    His Son 7 times
    Firstborn 7 times
    Thy Word 7 times in the New Testament
    "It is Written" 63 times (7x9) in the New Testament
    Jesus and Grace 49 times in the same verse
    Holy Spirit 7 times
    Breath (form of Spirit) 42 times (6x7)
    Thunders (God’s voice) 7 times
    God of Israel 203 times (7x29)

    I will now list for you the various names that are identified with the Church, along with the number of times they are mentioned in the scriptures. Many of these have not previously been mentioned.

    Church 77 times (as in the 77 generations of Luke 3)
    Kingdom of God 70 times, found only in the New Testament
    Assembly 49 times
    Bride 14 times
    Firstfruits 7 times in the New Testament
    Daughter of Zion (or Sion) 28 times (7x4)
    Daughter of Jerusalem 7 times
    Daughters of Jerusalem 7 times (all in the Song of Solomon, found only one other time in Luke 23:28)
    Children of Israel 644 times (7x92)
    Congregation 49 times in the Book of Exodus
    Tabernacle of the Congregation 21 times in Exodus (7x3)
    56 times in Numbers (7x8)
    Witnesses 49 times
    Fishers (as in fishers of men) 7 times
    Peculiar 7 times
    Kinsmen 7 times
    Worshippers 7 times
    Workmanship 7 times

    If in the course of my study, I had encountered one or two of these patterns, I might not have thought too much of it. But as you can clearly see, the evidence is overwhelming, and is growing day by day. There has not been a single time, when I dedicated myself, my time and my study to the Lord, relying on His inspiration, that I have not been shown more of His signature in the King James Bible. It is my hope that all who discover these wonderful truths, will also come to revere this most special of all books, the way I have.
     

Share This Page

Loading...