What Bible Verses Support Punishment/Hell Not Being Eternal?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    Seems that 2 opf the big heresies are coming back into vogue, even among Evangelical cicles....

    Universalism and Anniuilation(sp)

    Both popular, as they will explain away eternal punishent in a literal Hell

    What verses can support this "idea" of there NOT being eternal punishment in hell for those who refused jesus christ, and were not part of the Elect?
    Where would this 'strange" belief find any Biblical support?
     
  2. Grasshopper

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    Don't rely on a message board, read the arguments for yourself then see if they are biblical.

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0595143423/?tag=baptis04-20
     
  3. mandym

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  4. menageriekeeper

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    Since I am apparantly the resident universalist, ;) , I began a thread on just this subject a couple of months ago:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=69379

    We covered the subject fairly well, but feel free to add any questions or comments that you may have.
     
  5. percho

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    I think the answer is in the statement, But the gift of God is eternal life.

    What does the word life mean here?
    What does the word eternal mean here?

    Now that you are conscious that you are and will always be conscious of being somewhere were you before you were conscious of yourself?

    To be or not to be that is the question.
     
  6. Grasshopper

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    Better than what?
     
  7. rstrats

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    I just don’t understand why people want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is simply no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements? Who does that benefit? I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.
     
  8. Old Union Brother

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    Believing that punishment of the wicked is not eternal is pleasing to the flesh. Things of the Lord are understood with a spiritual mind not a carnal mind. Remember what it says in Romans 8
    Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    How many verses do you want showing that punishment is eternal? I’m going to give you these four all at once. Explain them away. I don’t think that you can.

    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
     
  9. rstrats

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    Old Union Brother,

    re: "Believing that punishment of the wicked is not eternal is pleasing to the flesh."

    Who is saying that?
     
     
    re: "How many verses do you want showing that punishment is eternal?"

    There are several that suggest eternal punishment, but I am not aware of any that say that the punishment is eternal conscious torment. I only see those that say that the punishment to be handed down is eternal death - not eternal life.



    re: "Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

    Nothing is said here about eternal conscious torment.
     

    re: "Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

    Nothing is said here about eternal conscious torment. In fact if the righteous get eternal life, then it would follow that the unrighteous get eternal death.
     

    re: " Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

    Nothing is said here about eternal conscious torment. It only speaks of immortal worms and fire that cannot be put out.
     
     
    re: "Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

    Nothing is said here about eternal conscious torment. It only speaks of smoke going up for ever and nothing is said about how long the lack of rest is to last.


    Show me one verse that can absolutely be interpreted no other way than to mean that the fate of the unsaved is eternal conscious torment.
     
    #9 rstrats, Mar 11, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2011
  10. Old Union Brother

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    rstrats:
    I do not know where you are coming from. I just do not see how you get that torment is not eternal out of what you posted Believe me I'm not trying to be a bully. But please study this carefully.

    In Mark 25:41 and 46 Strong’s word G165 everlasting means perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

    In Mark 6:44 Worm refers to unrepentant man

    In Rev 14:11 ever and ever is the same as everlasting in Mark 25:41 and 46 same reference.

    Please tell me how is that not eternal?
     
  11. InTheLight

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    Jude 7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
     
  12. westtexas

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    rstrats, I'm sure you agree that in this verse the believer receives "eternal life", correct? The duration in scripture in the Greek in this verse is the same for both punishment and life. It is eternal.
    kolasin aionion-eternal punishment
    zoen aionion-eternal life
    Nothing is said about eternal death. Scripture says "kolasin-punishment" not death
    Westtexas
     
  13. menageriekeeper

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    Slightly off topic, but...

    Really?

    I've honestly always taken this quite literally to mean that there will be so much for the "worms" to digest/decompose that it will take forever for that to happen.

    Since I know no Greek (yet, its on my list), give me a primer on how you get your interpretation, please. Start a new thread if the author of the OP thinks this is too far off his intended discussion. Thanks.
     
  14. Steadfast Fred

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    It is also interesting to note that in Matthew 25:46, the word 'punishment' can also be translated as 'torment.'

    Prior to the 1600's, it appears that translators used the word torment in that verse.

    Wycliffe (late 1300's) used turment
    Tyndale (Early 1500's) used payne
    Bishops used payne
    Geneva used paine
    Coverdale used payne

    It is clear that when Jesus said, These shall go away into everlasting punishment, He was speaking of perpetual torment.
     
  15. Old Union Brother

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    Amen!:thumbsup:
     
  16. Steadfast Fred

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    OUB,

    I just looked up the etymology for the word 'punishment' and found this little tidbit of information:

    late 13c., from Anglo-Fr. punisement (13c.), O.Fr. punissement, from punir (see punish). Meaning “rough handling” is from 1811.

    Interesting to note that punishment was not seen as rough handling until 1811. Prior to that, it was seen as torment and pain.
     
  17. Old Union Brother

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    Steadfast

    Thanks for the info.
     
  18. Steadfast Fred

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    You are welcome.
     
  19. Van

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    What in the Hell is going on?

    Universalism adds speculation to scripture to invent doctrine, just as Arminians and Calvinists do. They say after a person is thrown into the Lake of Fire, instead of being destroyed, they are -ah - purified and then they pop out of the Lake of Fire and joint the rest of the saints. How do you oppose speculation. They find something vague and pour their inventions into it.

    I believe the body of Christ is divided by man-made doctrines. Only by sticking to what God's word actually says, and not bending scripture to fit doctrine by reworking the meaning of words such as "eternal" can we nourish unity.

    My favorite response to those who say eternal does not mean eternal is John 3:16. If we shall not perish, then we have eternal life. If eternal did not mean forever and ever without end, then we would have to perish. So eternal means eternal.

    So the bible says those whose name is not found in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the lake of fire to suffer "eternal punishment." Whatever the punishment, it lasts forever and ever.

    But to illustrate how speculation enters into doctrine, how many have been taught that the eternal punishment is eternal torment where the person being tormented has conscious awareness for eternity? Most I would guess.
    But as the OP said, show me the verses that say that. What the bible actually says is Satan and his co-horts will suffer forever and ever -eternal torment. What the bible says about humans is (1) second death, (2) eternal punishment, (3) eternal darkness - i.e separated from God, (4) destroyed and (5) the smoke of the torment will rise forever and ever. So if we assumethat the smoke is emanating from on going torment, then we have a basis for the doctrine of "eternal torment." If we assume the smoke is a consequence of the torment in Gehenna, and simply illustrates the eternal consequence of that punishment, then we have no scriptural support for "eternal torment" but only the inventions of men.
     
  20. Steadfast Fred

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    Prior to the 1600's, the word 'kolasis' was always translated as 'torment' or 'pain.'

    'aionios' is translated as perpetual, or never-ending.

    It is clear Jesus was conveying the truth that 'everlasting punishment' meant perpetual or never-ending torment.
     

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