What Biblical Basis is there...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by APuritanMindset, Oct 26, 2004.

  1. APuritanMindset

    APuritanMindset
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    What Biblical basis is there for a pre-trib rapture? As I am reading the Bible, I find no warrant for us to say that 1) there is a rapture at all and 2) if there is one, it seems that Scripture makes it clear that it is AFTER tribulation. I am just thinking about this a lot as we go through Matthew in my New Testament class and I am beginning to really question whether the pre-trib rapture has any true Biblical support of it is just something to make people feel better or something along those lines.
     
  2. James_Newman

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    There are a few reasons to believe that some Christians will escape the tribulation. First, we are told to pray for this [​IMG]

    Luke 21:36
    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Also, there are the 24 elders in Revelation 5.

    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    These elders are Christians, redeemed by the blood. They are with God during the tribulation before the resurrection. I think that when John is told to 'come up hither' this is a picture of the rapture.

    Revelation 4:1
    After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    We see the same thing told to the two witnesses, and they do just that:

    Revelation 11:12
    And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
     
  3. APuritanMindset

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    I take it you're using the King James. I was looking in the Holman Christian Standard Bible, and here is how it rendered the verse:

    But be alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place and to stand before the Son of Man.

    In looking at the Greek, both ways of rendering the verse ("pray that you may have the strength" and "pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy") are equally used. So I don't know that this verse is a good verse to use in defense of the rapture with there being this discrepency between english translations, and obviously the Greek.

    Coudn't they be already dead at this time? being redeemed by the blood of God doesn't automatically take us to heaven in that instant. Otherwise, when people got saved, they would disappear. As is, when people get saved, they remain to do the work of God.

    These dont make a valid case for the rapture of all Christians. John was taken up to heaven to see the revelation of God. The Witnesses were taken up because they had accomplished the work that they had been sent to do.

    I hope I am not sounding rude. I don't mean to. I am just confused on the issue and am seeking a better, more concrete, case.
     
  4. James_Newman

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    I never said ALL Christians.
     
  5. APuritanMindset

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    Oops. Typo on my part. Sorry.

    Where do you stand on the issue exactly? I know there's been threads on this before, so you don't have to post that here so as to keep this from getting too off topic. You can send me a private message or something like that. But I am curious as to where you stand.
     
  6. AVL1984

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    In college among the students there were three theories going around (this was back in the early 1980's). The first was the "party line" taught by the college of the pre-tribulation rapture. (2) That of a mid-trib/pre-wrath position. (3) The tribulation occured and then Christ raptured Christians. All sides seemed to have some pretty valid arguments. The only ones who really seemed to take offense were those of the college administration when people questioned the pre-tribulation rapture. It was a very big sticking point with them that the rapture occured BEFORE the rapture, though they could never sufficiently prove that point without trying to negate other points of scripture or dispensationalizing them.
     
  7. James_Newman

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    APM, I believe in a conditional partial rapture, pre-trib. When Christ told us to watch and pray to be accounted worthy to escape, He meant because we might not be accounted worthy to escape. This ties in with the doctrine of millennial exclusion. Christians who are ready for Christ when he returns before the tribulation will be taken. Those who are not will be left to be 'ripened' by the tribulation. I could point you to some articles on my churches website if you like.
     
  8. AVL1984

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    James, I would be interested in the articles on your churches website if you don't mind posting the url.
     
  9. Lacy Evans

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    I believe that all three rapture theories are correct. Instead of either/or, it is all three. The end of the world is the harvest. (Matt 13:39) Take a look at Lev 23 and see if it fits.

    1st sheaf firstfruits (v10) no leaven=Christ the firstfriuts (I Cor 15:20)

    1st fruits with leavenv17 With leaven, crushed, baked with oil (Holy Spirit)=1st fruit pre-trib rapture, and mid-trib saints who refuse the mark. (Luke 21:36, Rev7:13-1

    General Harvest v 22 The second coming & ressurrection of all the saved dead. (I Cor 15:52, I Thess 4:15-18)after the trib.

    Gleanings v22Those who die in natural bodies during the Kingdom (Is 65:20)

    That's my theory.

    lacy
     
  10. LorrieGrace

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    APM, you weren't being rude. I believe that we will be raptured before because it says in the Bible that we are not appointed the wrath of the Lamb.

    Everyone has their own opinion and that is ok. No one REALLY knows, it is speculation.
     
  11. James_Newman

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  12. Grasshopper

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  13. James_Newman

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    We know where you stand on the rapture, grasshopper.
    2Peter 3
    3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
     
  14. Grasshopper

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    Hebrews 1
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Those "last days" are in our distant past. So guess where those scoffers are as well?
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    In the Past, I asked the same questions about the timing of rapture several times:

    I ask you, please show us where a verse in the Bible saying Rapture will be occured 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier before second coming?

    Also, please show us, where a verse in the Bible saying, Jesus Christ will come again before tribulation??

    But, no one here to answer my questions.

    I am waiting for anyone of you to prove us a verse to answer my questions.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  16. Marcia

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    I've heard some say the accounts of Noah being rescued from the Flood and Lot rescued from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah prefigure the rescue (rapture) of believers out of the Tribulation.

    I'm not arguing this as I have not studied it enough yet. I'm saving eschatology for last. (Get it? [​IMG] [​IMG] )
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

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    James Newman,

    You shows us of Kingdombaptist.org about Rapture. I did read them.

    I read a topic - 'The Pre-Trib Rapture in 2 Thess. 2' by Joey Faust.

    Faust says:
    Let you know, I am amillennialist.

    So far, I am aware of none amillers saying on 2 Thess. 2:2 - 'day of Christ is at hand' means 'we are already in the "kingdom" ', or 'First Resurrection is past already'. I know all of amillers understand 'day of Christ is at hand' of verse 2 speaks of many people thought Christ already arrived - second coming, because of its context with verse 1 talking about our gathering together at Lord's coming. Amills and I understand, 'day of Christ' means, Christ's coming at the end of the age. That why many Christians in Thessalonica were rumour and misunderstand about the timing of Christ's coming.

    Faust's interpreting of 2 Thess. 2:7 'he' is being identify as Christians.

    I disagree with his interpreting.

    I understand the word, 'he' of verse 7 speaks of Antichrist, not Holy Spirit or Christians either.
    How do I know? The only way, that we can understand verse 7 - 'he', start read context back to verse 3 says, 'man of sin' is speak of Antichrist, also, 'the son of perdition' is same as Antichrist. Also, Apostle Paul continued, from verse 3 thru 8 focus on 'man of sin'-

    'man of sin' - vs. 3
    'the son of perdition' - vs. 3
    'himself' - vs. 4
    'he' - vs. 4
    'himself' - vs. 4
    'he' - vs. 4
    'he' - vs. 6
    'his' - vs. 6
    'the mystery of iniquity' - vs. 7
    'he' - vs. 7
    'he' - vs. 7
    'Wicked' - vs. 8

    Obivously, the word, 'he' of verse 7 is context with verse 3 thru 8 talk about Antichrist. There is none mentioned of the Holy Spirit or saints find anywhere in the context of verse 3 to 8.

    Apostle Paul tells us, of verse 6, we should know what thing that holding Antichrist back from being revealed in his time? I understand verse 6 speaks of Antichrist is now being holding back by God. Of course, Holy Spirit is holding Antichrist from being to be revealed. I do agree with pretribbers saying Antichrist is being holding back by the Holy Spirit. Yes, that is correct. Also, Holy Spirit is God. God have power to hold Antichrist from being to be revealed. God does not allow Antichrist to be revealed, because it is not his time yet(vs. 6). God knows when the right time to come, God will allow Antichrist to be revealed.

    Verse 7 in KJV says, "now letteth will let" I consider, the translating of KJV of 'now letteth will let' is a weak translation. It should saying, 'holding back' more clear, because it says in Greek words.

    So, verse 7 tells us, Antichrist is now holding back from being to be revealed.

    Then, Paul says, "...UNTIL he be taken out of the way". I understand what it talking about. It tells us, until the time comes, then Antichrist shall be removal from "the way"(Greek-midst) mystery, and Antichrist shall be revealed - verse 8.

    There is no evidence of the context of verse 3 to 7 saying anything about Holy Spirit or saints either. The context of verse 3-8 talking about Antichrist is now holding back from being to be revealed.

    The reason why Antichrist is now holding back from to be revealed, because God desires every person in the world need to hear the gospel of salvation, Satan cannot deceived the nations, because he is now chained(cannot stop us from spreading the gospel to the world). But, Paul tells us, our gathering together at Lord's comign shall not come till we must see apostasy first and the revealed of Antichrist.

    The sign of Antichrist shall be revealed, by follow the apostasy increasing worsen throughout daily in the last days.

    When, the Christians are turn away from the Lord, the revivals decaying, the wicked increasing, also, the preaching on gospel of salvation is decling. God knows when the time is right, also, I believe God will be fed up with Christians, because our forsaking away from Him, then God knows when the time is right, He shall allow Satan to be loosed out (freed from chains), then to revealed to the world, and shall deceived the world. Right now, Satan is still being holding back from being to be revealed, because our gospel of salvation is still spreading over the world. But, the apostasy is increasing worsen throughout daily will be continud all the way to the end, at the same time during apostasy period, God shall allow Antichrist to be revealed.

    So, therefore, 2 Thess. 2:1-3 clearly telling us, our gathering together at Lord's coming shall not come till we must see apostasy occured first, then the Antichrist shall be revealed. That passage cannot be pretrib. Because, we all must face Antichrist first - Rev. 13:7,10 before Christ comes.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  18. danrusdad

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    Nowhere are we promised escape from tribulation. We are only promised escape from God's wrath. Tribulation and wrath are two completely different things in scripture; however, most pre-tribs equate the two. In fact, there is nowhere in scripture that Daniel's 70th week is called the 'tribulation'. Jesus only spoke of the "great tribulation" and it does not begin until the 1/2 point of the 70th week.

    There is no Biblical basis for a pre-trib rapture. It rests on unsupportable assumptions:

    1) wrath = tribulation
    2) rapture and second coming are distinct (this is comparing apples and oranges because the rapture is one of the first things that happens during the second coming)
    3) daniel's 70th week = the tribulation
    4) Christ's return can happen at any moment (imminence)

    None of these assumptions have scripture to back them up. Pre-tribulation rapture stands or falls on theses assumptions.
     
  19. Michael Hobbs

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    Perhaps this will help.

    #1
    Zechariah 14:4 tells us that when Christ returns, He shall stand on the Mount of Olives.
    Acts 1:12 tells that is where He ascended from.

    Thus, Christ last stood on the Mount of Olives and when He returns at the end of the Tribulation, He will once again stand there.

    No where in 1 Thess. 4 do we see Christ setting foot on the earth. We see the saints rising up to meet Him in the clouds (vs 17).

    Thus, we must conclude that the events of 1 Thess. 4 are not at the end of the Tribulation.


    #2
    1Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
    1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    So, what is the "wrath" that saints have been delivered from? The Tribulation (Rev. 6:16-17)


    So, in light of #1 and #2, it makes sense to me to say the rapture occurs before the Tribulation begins and thus, the NT saints are delivered from the "wrath of the Lamb" (the Tribulation).

    Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
     
  20. APuritanMindset

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    When I read 1 Thessalonians 5:9 in the context of verses 1-11, I don't see the correlation between "wrath" and the time of tribulation in Revelation.

    I look back at Matthew 24 and I see Jesus talking. And He first points out the signs, and then He says they will hand Christians over to persecution, then a time of great tribulation, and AFTER that tribulation, Jesus says,

    Then the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Matthew 24:30-31 HCSB)

    So when the elect are taken away from the earth is AFTER tribulation. In what way is this making the case for a BEFORE-trib rapture?

    When I read the Thessalonians verse, I see it as being that we are no longer under God's wrath in regards to our sin. We are saved and counted righteous in Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to us. And GOd already took His wrath out on Jesus for the sins of the elect at the cross.
     

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