On two different threads this has been a matter of debate. It is worthy of more discussion. Feel free to address any Calvinism vs Arminianism issues on this thread. But here is the main issue here: Can unregenerate man do "good" things as God defines goodness? Is there REAL goodness apart from the way God defines goodness? There is no doubt that unregenerate man can do things that men consider goodness, but is it not done with godless motives? Can something be good and godless? Can the unregenerate man, still totally dead in his sins, turn to Christ and trust him for salvation? Does that really even make sense? And finally, address this situation. John goes to heaven. Jack goes to hell. Why? The question is valid because for what ever reason each went where he went will be the same reason any goes where he goes. This scenario will be followed with several "why" questions until we get to the bottom of it.