What caused Iniquity to be Found In Both satan/Adam?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Nov 18, 2011.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    As BOTH of them were originally created by god to be w/u sin being found in them...

    What caused them to create their initial sin against God?
     
  2. freeatlast

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    Personal choice, free will. In the case of Adam it was preceded with a temptation then he exercised free will. In the case of satan he was his own temptation and also exercised free will.
     
    #2 freeatlast, Nov 18, 2011
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  3. The Biblicist

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    James 1:13-17 defines how sin originates. It originates from "our own lusts". The term "lusts" can refer to good or evil desires.

    In Adam and in Satan there were no "evil lusts." They were created "upright." Evil originated from the abuse of "good" desires. In Satan's case there was nothing wrong in admiring the beauty of God's creation even in regard to himself. There was nothing wrong in wanting to be like God. These were all "good" desires. What made them "evil" was the abuse of "good" desires. Admiring himself became pride and wanting to be like God became believing he was like God and then followed in wanting others to admire him like God. Hence, pride was the root of sin and that is what God hates more than any other sin.
     
  4. convicted1

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    You may be correct, but do you think that Luicfer became jealous of how God favored Jesus? I know this is pure conjecture, and the bible doesn't say this, but its something to chew on, no?
     
  5. freeatlast

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    So what makes you think Adam or satan could not have lusts (desires)? Jesus was tempted and the same scripture says; But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    Also in the case of satan I am not sure that passage can be applied to him. He was never a man. Like I said he was his own temptation and acted on free will to carry it out while Adam was tempted through another then acting on free will (choice) to carry it out.
     
    #5 freeatlast, Nov 18, 2011
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  6. Winman

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    Satan, the fallen angels, and Adam and Eve prove that a sin nature is not necessary to commit sin. All that is necessary is natural desires and free will. Some equate lust or desires as the sin nature, but this is not so. When Eve looked on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, she was tempted by the lust of the flesh (the tree looked good for food), the lust of the eyes (the tree was pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (it was DESIRED to make one wise). These are the three lusts of the world described in 1 Jn 2:16. Satan only excited Eve's natural desires by his suggestions, he had no ability to actually cause these desires or compel Eve.

    Natural desires are not necessarily evil, it was not evil for Eve to desire or enjoy food, it was not evil for her to enjoy beauty, and it was not evil for her to desire to be wise. These are all God-given desires, and Adam and Eve were declared VERY GOOD having these natural desires. Jesus also came in the flesh and had these same desires, and was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin.

    Where natural desires become evil is when they would entice us to break God's commandments. It is not evil to desire food, but when we allow this desire to control us and eat too much we can become obese and experience real health problems. It is not wrong to enjoy your wife's beauty, but it is evil to lust after another man's wife. It is not evil to desire to be wise, but when we become vain and conceited it is.

    Temptation is not sin. If Eve had walked away from the forbidden tree and denied her unlawful desires, she would have committed no sin. It was when she made a free will choice to obey her desires and disobey God she sinned. It is exactly the same for us.
     
  7. Romans7man

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    Agreed!
    I think Wal-Mart had a lesson on lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. Just as soon as you walk in it is in your face. And something else, the smell of food cooking makes you hungry so you will by more.
     
  8. freeatlast

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    Very true. There is nothing necessarily wrong with desire (lust). However there can be with what we do with it. I would also say although I do use the terms "sin nature" I am a little leery of it as it can conjure up an understanding not there.
     
  9. Winman

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    The term "sin nature" is not found in scripture (although some MVs use this term). The scriptures say we are flesh. It is obvious to any honest reader that Eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life BEFORE she sinned. Yet Adam and Eve were declared VERY GOOD by God himself. This shows we are not sinners because we have a flesh nature, but only become sinners when we willfully obey unlawful desires in transgression of God's laws.

    Saying we are born sinners has led to all sorts of error. This has led to infant baptism, the Immaculate Conception, Mary worship, predestination, Total Depravity and on and on. It makes the perfect excuse for sin and makes God responsible for sin. It is the greatest and most evil doctrine to ever infiltrate the church.

    Read the scriptures, they never say we are born sinners, but rather say we go ASTRAY or TURN from God. Read the three parables (which are one) in Luke 15 which Jesus directly tells us is speaking of sinners repenting. The shepherd HAD 100 sheep, one was lost, he sought for it and recovered it. The woman HAD 10 pieces of silver, lost one, searched and recovered it. The father HAD 2 sons, one went ASTRAY, but then repented and returned, Jesus twice saying the young man was ALIVE AGAIN. How can you be alive AGAIN if you were born dead in sin as many teach? How could Paul say he was ALIVE ONCE if we are all born dead? (Rom 7:9)

    It is as plain as the nose on your face if a person reads the scriptures without a preconceived bias.
     
  10. David Lamb

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    It is not obvious to me, and I trust I am not being dishonest! :laugh: Lust is a sin, and pride is a sin, so how could Eve, or anyone else, have those things before they sin? Only by restricting "sin" to physical actions (with Eve, taking and eating the forbidden fruit) could you say this.

    As for "sin nature" not being found in English translations of the bible, the same is true of many other things which I imagine you hold to or use, such as "virgin birth", "missionary work", "prayer meeting", "quiet time", "diaconate", "hymn book/hymnal" .......... but Jesus being born of a virgin, spreading the gospel, meeting for prayer, etc., are taught exemplified in the bible.
     
  11. zrs6v4

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    The answer you are looking for is plain mystery unless you resort to an theory. You will never get fact on this at the level you may or may not be looking for. The answer is simple and it is sin. The real question is how does a perfect angel sin before sin ever existed or better said, sin was unknown at that point. I would assume Satan's sin was much like Adams where he knew neither good nor evil because all was good. Adam had a tempter but who tempted or taught Satan to rebell? Can we fall in glory like Satan did? What keeps us from sinning in glory is it our perfect free will or is it God's power? Did God removed His goodness from Satan or did Satan accidentally stumble over sin?

    A better question to put sin in perspective (yes the sin we are saved from) is when Satan accidentally fell, God eternally condemned him with no mercy or way of escape? God could have done the same to Adam and all of us and it would have been right. Quite an interesting topic.

    God only knows.
     
    #11 zrs6v4, Nov 19, 2011
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  12. Winman

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    It isn't obvious that Eve had lust before she sinned?

    Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    This fruit appealed to her appetite. You know that appetite is different than hunger, appetite is when you want to eat something because it appeals to you, whereas when you are truly hungry you will eat almost anything. Eve wasn't starving in the garden, food was plenteous, she desired this fruit because it looked good for food. This is the lust of the flesh.

    This fruit was pleasant to the eyes, this is easily the lust of the eyes.

    This fruit was DESIRED to make one wise, this is the pride of life. Pretty hard to deny this was lust as the scriptures directly say she DESIRED it.

    Lust is not a sin, this is the same word used of Jesus when he said, With DESIRE I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: in Luke 22:15, look and see for yourself.
     
  13. Winman

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    As for the term "sin nature", if you believe we were born with a sin nature, then Jesus was too, as Heb 2:16-18 says Jesus did not take on the NATURE of angels, but of the seed of Abraham, that he was made like his brethren in ALL THINGS, and that he SUFFERED being tempted. Heb 4:15 says he could be TOUCHED with the FEELINGS of our INFIRMITIES, and was in ALL POINTS TEMPTED LIKE AS WE ARE, yet without sin.

    Jesus had the same exact nature as men, if we are born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus. I refuse to believe Jesus had a sin nature, he was FLESH just like us. In fact, the scriptures say that any man who denies Jesus came in the flesh is the spirit of antichrist (1 Jn 4:1-3).
     
    #13 Winman, Nov 19, 2011
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  14. Winman

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    I'm sorry Z, but you are so far out in right field on this one that you are in the parking lot. Satan did not sin by accident, it was intentional. You have been conditioned to believe God causes all things, when the scriptures show we are able to "invent" evil.

    Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    God does not make evil, we were all made upright, but we have used our free will to seek out "inventions". Satan and men have the ability to conceive or invent evil of their own. Satan's evil originated within himself.

    Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
     
    #14 Winman, Nov 19, 2011
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  15. freeatlast

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    Apply the same principle. The bible never says we have a sin nature.
     
  16. JesusFan

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    We are ALL born with the sin principle residing in us, at war against God, and once saved, with the HS dwelling in us.. per Apostle Paul

    We are ALL children of satan, before we are redeemed by the Lord Per Jesus

    NOT one good thing dwells in my flesh Per Paul again

    We are born/conceived in sin/inquity per King david

    pretty clear IF we read the Bible without preconceived notions!
     
  17. JesusFan

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    have flesh/sin principle Same concept different terminology!
     
  18. Winman

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    We are NOT born children of the devil.

    Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
    21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to pass through fire for them?

    All babies are born unto God, they belong to him, they are his children.

    You won't see this, but we become children of Satan when we knowingly and willfully sin against God.

    Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

    When the prodigal son left his father and his country, this represents God. He willfully and knowingly sinned, and joined himself to a citizen of that far country, this represents Satan.

    When he repented and returned to his father, what did Jesus say?

    Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

    Luk 15:32 It was meet we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

    Twice Jesus said the prodigal son was ALIVE AGAIN. You cannot be alive again if you were born dead in sin.

    You keep on believeing that Manichean/Gnostic monk Augustine who used a flawed Latin text to develop Original Sin.
     
  19. JesusFan

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    Did Not know both jesus and paul were Manichean monks!
     
  20. plain_n_simple

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    Lucifer, looking at himself, became filled with pride and said he would be like the Highest. Eve listened to Satan and considered that she would not die. Once she believed she would not die, she also believed she would be like God. Looking at self is dangerous, which is why Jesus said deny yourself to become like Him.
     
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