What Constitutes a Depraved Nature?

[SIZE=-1]7. No solicitation or advertising of any kind. Our message boards are for discussions, not to sell goods or services. If you would like to advertise, please contact us for an advertising package.
--It falls under this rule. He is advertising his doctrine; making the board his personal mission field.
--I already mentioned to you that all of the Catholics were purged from this board for the exact same thing or attitude that HP expressed. You don't believe me??
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Stop with the accusations and put things in their context.
If I say: You don't believe that I can make paper airplanes (when I claimed I could), then I could simply answer: you can remain in your unbelief. Does that mean I called you unsaved? Taken out of context (which you have done) your accusations are absurd.

The subject is the depravity of man, not salvation. When shown beyond any shadow of doubt the veracity of the depravity of man, such that he cannot refute the doctrine, then the only conclusion is that he remains in unbelief. One can rationalize, and reject. In the end it is unbelief. HP has no answer to Psalm 51:5, and thus wanted to go on to Psalm 58:3. That was his reason.

1. Questioning some one's "belief" in their ability to make paper airplanes is not questioning their salvation.
2. Questioning someone's "belief" in the doctrine of the depravity of man is not questioning their salvation.
Get your facts straight.

Yes, very concerned. And in this post it is your attacks against me that I am concerned about.

 

That is what you say. But fortunately the Bible doesn't say that.

Are you denying what the Bible says?
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb:
Would you like me to repeat again for you, or do you just keep denying the Bible?

(Psa 58:3) Even inside the womb wicked people are strangers to God. From their birth liars go astray. (God's Word Translation)

And again:
(Psa 58:3) The wicked turn aside from birth;
liars go astray as soon as they are born.

Is three times enough--three different translations?

Yes, that is exactly what the verse says. Why do you deny it?

The context is the "wicked" throughout the whole psalm. David didn't establish any thing, but the Holy Spirit of God writing through David clearly establishes the depravity of man in verse three. And unless you are illiterate and cannot read the Holy Spirit states:

(GW) Even inside the womb wicked people are strangers to God. From their birth liars go astray.

The wicked turn aside from birth; liars go astray as soon as they are born. (NET)
--"People" who come from "the womb," or "from birth," are usually called infants or babies. If you want verification I can ask my children for you.

You are finally getting the idea.
Yes. Children, infants are born sinners; estranged from God, as soon as they are born--with depraved natures. That is the teaching of verse three. You seem to be agreeing with me in your above paragraph. That is a good first step.

No question about it; verse three teaches the depravity of man, right from birth onward, and coupled with 51:5 we learn that they are depraved right from conception. You are learning. Don't give up now.

David didn't have to do that. The Holy Spirit did it for him. He clearly said: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born speaking lies." It is not a good idea to question God. They are God's words. Just accept them as truth.

Is this your way out? Throw out all the poetic books of the Bible, for we can't trust any teaching that may come from them. Is this what you believe? Words still have meaning, whether written in poetic form or not. You still have to deal with these two verses, and you have failed to do that. Psalm 51:5 and Psalm 58:3 teach a doctrine, the depravity of man, which you refuse to believe. As I have said before, and will say again, it is a matter of belief. The doctrine is there. It is clearly taught. It is simply a matter of whether or not you choose to believe it.

 

Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes.

Does God create children of the devil? If God creates children and allows then to be stained with sin of other men, then are they condemned until faith in Christ comes? The logical conclusion with this idea is that all children who do not obey God before possible death go straight to hell.

In accordance with the verse in Psalms 58:3 have you ever heard a new born baby lie? It seems that the psalmist is making and strong point about the wicked, does he say all men are this or just the wicked to whom he refers? Is it not the soul who sins that shall die and that the father will not be responsible for the sin of the son and visa versa according to Ezek 18

How is our nature different than Adam and Eves, did God make them different, what made them sin? What makes us sin?

Ezek. 28:15 says that "You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Til iniquity was found in you"

 

Nice quote. Who is it speaking of?

 

It refers to the devil. Which again shows that God does not create anything evil. Evil is sin and sin is trangression against God. God created an angel with choice and he chose the wicked way. God creates man with choice and we all choose the wicked way because we sin, but this does not mean the devil was not created wicked and it does mean that man is created wicked, sin is choice not default by another being.

If sin is passed onto babies then why was Christ not born in sin from adam through Mary His mother?

 

Concerning the devil, Jesus said:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Interesting language that Jesus uses, isn't it?
Those "not-so-innocent" children are born into the devil's family, according to Scripture. And that is why Jesus said:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

And again:
John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
12 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Notice, that according to verse 12, that to be born into God's family there is but one requirement--believe in his name. That is the only requirement.--faith. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Thus Jesus said you must be born again. You have been born physically, and at the same time born into the devil's family. Now you must be born spiritually into the family of God.
The reason--we all have a sin nature.

As for Christ: He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and therefore does not have a sin nature.

"As for one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned."
By Adam sin has passed from generation to generation through man.
But Christ was not born of man; rather by the Holy Spirit.

 

What scripture do you find that statement in?

And what does from the beginning mean, from the beginning of the devils existence or the worlds existence?


Heb 2:17

17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
NKJV

If Christ was made like His brethren in ALL things I guess this would include nature! It is interesting that Jesus was made like His brethren in all things so that He might be merciful and faithful, that is that He would understand our struggles and issues. How could Jesus identify with us if we were made with a degenerate heart and He wasn't. All things means all things does it not?


If salvation is by faith alone then where is grace? Where is the blood? Where is love?

How can one be saved by faith alone and then besaved by anything else. If anything else is envloved, even one thing then it is not alone.

 

I gave you Scripture already. It is quite evident that if you must be born into God's family (John 1:12,13), then you were not in God's family to begin with, but (like the Pharisees) were in the family of the devil (John 8:44).

Furthermore:
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
--You acted as if you were in the devil's family. You walked according to his actions, according to his spirit, that same spirit that works in the children of disobedience--that child of disobedience that either you are or were.
--Your behaviour is by nature the same as "the children of wrath, which either you are or were.
In other words you are either in or were the child of the devil, in his family. The Scripture is very clear on this point, and therefore must be born again into God's family.

Scripture doesn't contradict itself.

"Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Only faith is required.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Only faith is required.

There are scores of other Scriptures that I could quote, but space and time does not permit. They all say the same thing. One is saved by faith, and faith alone. There is nothing more that is needed than faith. Your problem is in definitions of words, and in taking Scripture out of context. We will examine one passage that makes salvation clear. If you cannot accept this passage concerning salvation I doubt if you will accept any passage concerning salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"For by grace"--This refers to the grace of God, specifically the grace that Christ showed to us on the cross when he paid the penalty for our sins. It is nothing that we do; nothing that we merit. In that way we are saved by grace, God's grace--the work of Christ on the cross. This has nothing to do with us; everything to do with what Christ has done for us. It points to the sacrifice of Christ.

"are ye saved through faith" This is how a man is saved. He is saved by putting his faith in Christ, specifically the saving work of Christ, which by grace, Christ died for us. He didn't have to die for our sins. We don't deserve it. It was by grace that he died for our sins. Look carefully at what it says in Romans 11:6:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Grace and works and incompatible. If salvation is by the grace of God, then it is not of works. There can be no works involved if salvation is by grace. Works nullify salvation by grace. If it is by works, then grace is no longer grace. The teaching is clear.

It is "not of yourself" There is nothing you can do to merit salvation. Baptism does not merit salvation. It has nothing to do with salvation. Baptism is something you do; something man does. Salvation is "not of yourself." It excludes baptism and all other works of man, and everything else a man may even think of doing. There is nothing that man can do to merit salvation. Salvation is by faith and faith alone in the shed blood of Christ which comes to us by the grace of God.

"It is the gift of God" A gift cannot be earned. A gift is received. It is received without payment. Works are a type of payment. Salvation is a gift. You don't earn a gift. You don't pay for it through baptism, confirmation, going to church, or any other church rite. It is a gift, full and free, given freely, because of the grace of God, to be accepted by faith and faith alone.

"It is not of works" This is clearly stated. Baptism is ruled out completely for baptism is a work. It is done by man, and received by man. Jesus does not come down in the flesh and baptize anyone. It is a work of man. The only thing man must do is believe (or have faith). It is God's grace that provides salvation. Man must simply believe (have faith).

"lest any man should boast" Think of it. Jesus paid it all. He claimed "It is finished." But when the COC people get to heaven (if they do), they will jump around boasting, saying: Jesus paid 90% and I paid the other 10% through my works, through my baptism. Jesus did not pay it all; I had to pay some of that salvation myself. "Lest any man should boast." You cannot boast in your salvation. Yet that is what you claim by insisting that salvation is part of your salvation. You take away from the atoning work of Christ on the cross. You say that Christ did not pay the full penalty of your sin; that you paid part of that penalty by being baptized, by doing works.

Salvation is by faith and faith alone. It is a gift of God, to be received by faith.
It is His grace that provided it.
There is no other way, no other message.